Tango Argentino > how to do enrosque ( for a man)

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by aaah, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    Then I shant discuss further until you have listened to it! It's an hilarious piece of music. I still laugh when I hear it and it's even more hilarious when you know what the words mean. I used this example because it's full of musical ideas that will never be taught in a class. However, waddling can be used in other more well-known music, e.g. Tigre Viejo, "Old Tiger", Osvaldo Fresedo. CHUNK-chunk CHUNK-chunk CHUNK! can be expressed as a waddle to express the tigers gait.

    Maybe, but music must be considered when talking about dance, unless this is a PE class. :p
  2. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    I don't know, but I have heard it from several teachers. Mind you, complete beginners (and I mean people who are trying tango-like movement for the very first time, and who count their experience in minutes, not hours) can find the suggestion of visual reinforcement of physical signals helpful. My usual suggestion to beginning followers is that 80% of tango following is to stand on one foot or the other, directly in front of the leader, and to go wherever you need to go to stay there. Visual clues can help, but perhaps that is the Latin dancer in me talking: there we often dance in completely open position - no contact at all - and the visual or shaping lead is all we've got.
  3. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    Does that qualify as a logical fallacy? I don't think anyone without at least three generations of ancestors living in Buenos Aires can claim to be dancing Argentine Tango. I could probably claim some Patagonian relatives if I dug back deep enough into my Welsh ancestry...so can I counter Godwin with the BTM's Patagonian Law?

    i would agree with that definintion.
  4. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    You mean that calesita can be another term for beginner leader? ;)
    opendoor, dchester and Subliminal like this.
  5. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    This is getting tiresome now, but as it won't lie down quietly . . .

    Zoopsia, this is NOT what I wrote, nor is it what I believe.
    I could equally write that your default position is to ascribe such a view
    to those who don't agree with you or have a different way of dancing.
    But I don't wish to start a flame war.

    So let's be clear:
    Tango is what you make it (not necessarily what teacher makes of it).
    Tango is dance to tango music, it's not tango if it isn't tango music.
    However most people outside Buenos Aires will say it's tango if it looks
    like tango to them irrespective of the music.

    There are all sorts of ways of dancing it and, in the modern way,
    all sorts of names of styles. Your way is not mine. Mine isn't yours.

    You can find all the styles in Buenos Aires and if you look you can
    find most of them danced at some time and some place at milongas.
    Some are more sociable than others, some are more connected
    than others, some are more musical or have a different musicality
    than others. There are no absolutes other than your own reality.

    But there is a social and sociable tango of Buenos Aires which is not
    one of enrosques and calesitas etc. It is co-operative, musical, enables
    dancing on, and may be the result of, crowded floors.

    So here is an example of an American dancing in Denver who did not
    power her own giros, molinettes nor anything else, but she was totally
    involved, engaged and yet moved herself. Her contribution was as vital
    as in any other form of tango, maybe more so, while her partner had
    no thought nor need of embellishments.

    You may not wish to dance like this and that is your choice to make.
    You say your dance is art, I say mine isn't - I'm just dancing.
  6. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I think there's several good points you have made (not just here but in some other posts), that I suspect a few people don't really understand. With a really good follower, the lead is very subtle, but in no way does that have anything to do with backleading. Maybe with some followers you might need to shout for them to hear it, but with others, a whisper is all that it takes. The skill for the leader (which I'm still working on), is to quickly determine how the follower is responding at the moment in time, so the lead can be both clear, comfortable, and enjoyable for her. Followers who have developed their sensitivity to this level, allow for some really nice dances. You can get them to be more precise.

    Of course it then requires a leader who doesn't have a lot of extra "noise" in his lead.
  7. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I suspect that a few people may not be familiar with the technique that you are describing. The man IS still leading the molinette, as you correctly stated, even though the follower is providing energy for the turn.

    If someone doesn't like that technique, that's a fair statement, but to just say it's backleading would seem to say that they don't really understand it.
  8. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    The leader steps around the follower while she simply pivots (does not step). It's sort of the inverse of the molinette, where the woman steps around the man, while the man pivots.

    While doing a calesita, the follower may do embellishments with the free foot, and the man may (or may not) take her off axis. In my experience, typically social dancers do not take the follower off axis when doing a calesita, while performers will commonly do so.
  9. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Most of us leaders aren't perfect either. When I become a perfect leader, then I'll worry about followers being perfect. If you bring more good than bad to the dance, you'll get asked again. The trick (for both leaders and followers), is that the individual is not always the best judge of how they did. Some people are legends in their own mind, while others may be too pessimistic.
  10. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    Or both:-/
    mind you, I suspect the art of a good leader (metaphorically)is picking up the the ball after a fumble without missing a beat...
    dchester likes this.
  11. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    You could let it lie too ya know... you don't have to wait for others to do so if you are tired of it...

    It seems to me you are contradicting yourself here, but whatever.
    You wrote the bit about dancing the social tango of Argentina in response to my post about the follower giving power to a molinete, but the leader still controlling when and where to enter and exit the sequence. I don't know how you interpreted that to be about non-traditional music or about visual following (you mention that in your response) It seems you made a leap that had nothing to do with my post.

    Clearly you aren't actually reading my posts in their entirety or you'd have stumbled across in at least one of the HUNDREDS of times I've mentioned that I learned from someone who was taught by milongeuros in BA and who danced ONLY non-changing embrace CE to VERY traditional music. It's how I dance quite often (though not all leaders want this... I dance what I'm led) and it's the basis of how I teach. That person taught me (and subsequent instruction from others teaching "traditional" styles reinforced) my ideas about molinete. So I still say your argument about the "sociable style of social tango" and me not doing it is without merit.

    Nothing I am advocating in my expression of molinetes violates that.
  12. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Are you kidding? He's embellishing all over the place! He's also giving her time for some too.

    If by embellishment" you mean high boleos and ganchos, then no. But that isn't the limit of what can be an embellishment, and Vidort does quite a bit in this video. I wouldn't want to try to count the number of taps, flicks, leg lifts, etc he did with the free leg that were what I'd call embellishments (ie: not required for the lead or execution of the moves done together as a couple)

    As to her powering the molinete, it's hard to tell from a video just how much the follower is or isnt' doing. I'd say that since he is stepping with her, she has little need of adding power. If he were pivoting, she would need more.

    I can only think that we are using terms differently.
  13. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I consider dance to be an art form. The creative process is artistic expression. I would consider YOUR dancing to be those things to, as well as anyone who gets out on the floor and tries to create, rather than mimic, a dance.

    You don't feel you are creating something together with your partner? Or is it that your definition of "art" is more limited than mine and the effort to create isn't part of the definition?
  14. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    About this video, you can see that Vidort is making adjustments to the woman. He is bending forward at the hip to get more room because she is a bit too upright and sometimes even leaning backward. You can also see that her torso is disconnected in two parts, top and bottom; she did not engage her core muscles which would make the torso move as one piece. As a result, she sort of looks like a rubber stick as she walks. This makes it difficult to lead and will slow him down in corrida's and giros. While Vidort was a very good dancer, he will be limited by the form and technique of the person he is dancing with.
  15. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    There is good art and there is bad art. Good art makes sense and every part of it connects to form a whole. Bad art doesn't as parts seem disconnected. There is usually a central focus which gives the eye something to focus on which calms the mind. If it's too busy, it causes the mind discomfort. The same can be said of dance. The focus shouldn't be on movement, but on the music. The movement is a result of that music. And art is the embodiment of all these parts. Bad dancing makes the music and the movement two separate things.
  16. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Totally agree.

    Thinking about starting a new thread about knowing where the woman's feet are, (or, more tediously, seeing if there is an old one!) since I see more than one person who believes that a "good leader" always knows where his partner's feet are.
  17. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    I've lumped together some of the misrepresentations I can recall,
    not just yours.

    Words don't convey nuances but yours haven't implied nor explained
    how a leader can interrupt a self powered molinette to the extent you claim.
    My experience says not, and often the so-called powering amounts
    to the lady setting the timing herself with the man having to effectively
    chase her. It may be not what you experience as a follower but as a
    leader I sympathise with LKSO.

    I can only conclude from what you wrote and the fact that you are also writing
    in detail about enrosques which is a performance, or at least a loose embrace,
    man's embellishment when contrived to be executed on purpose.

    I cannot assess how your unnamed teachers dance or what they taught,
    but there are all kinds of teaching purporting and claiming all kinds of things
    in Buenos Aires just as everywhere else. Unfortunately the word milonguero
    is frequently misappropriated from Buenos Aires to acquire credence and it is
    also extensively misapplied abroad. We all have to make decisions when it
    comes to tango based on our own experience and discernment
    plus some appropriate research made easier today by the internet.

    And again, Buenos Aires is suffering a surfeit of academically taught
    and/or performance and competition influenced tango to the extent
    that today's still Golden Age influenced social dance may be overcome.

    Maybe so, maybe not, everyone's perspective is different and that's why
    other views and experiences should not be dismissed too quickly.

    My experience of Buenos Aires is different with no self-powered molinettes
    from the porteñas and no double speed steps unless the speed of my turn
    required that. Literally they facilitate a step by step molinette so it becomes
    no different in timing to a simple walk, lead from the chest but rotating.
    I can only conclude that the self-powering of molinettes is teacher tango
    designed as a compromise to get it working amongst learning dancers.
    I have certainly experienced it being taught and the resultant dancing.
  18. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Good and bad are subjective descriptions of art. Even among experts there is rarely consensus, especially during the time contemporary to the creation.

    My point was that dance, as a creative process, is a form of artistic expression. Therefore, IMO, dance is an art form. That applies to social dance as well as performance dance. My post was in reply to the statement that it was neither art nor science.

    Whether or not the result is "good" or "bad" (as judged by someone outside of that creative process) is somewhat irrelevant to my point.
  19. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    The way I see it, if he's saying his dance is not art, maybe he's correct. I've never seen him dance, so what can I say. If he's saying our dance is not art, then he doesn't know what he's talking about.

    However, at this time I won't get into whether my dance is good art or bad art.

  20. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Ok, but there was no way for me to know that since you were quoting sections of my post and writing responses to them.

    Perhaps a discussion of the technique for doing so is a subject for another thread. Typically, I wouldn't think a leader would be trying to get out of the molinete in the middle when trying to do an enrosque, so it's off topic here. I could be wrong... leaders who do enrosques, feel free to correct that assumption.

    My experience says yes.

    Not so much have I written in detail about enrosques themselves, although that IS the topic of the thread (I'm wondering why you are bothering with this thread if you have no interest in them in the first place?)

    I have mostly been writing about the follower's molinete that accompanies the enrosque. As far as I can tell from the thread, we haven't even reached an agreement on what is or isn't an enrosque!

    I do get led in a lot of molinete's where the leader pivots on one foot as I go around. (in all manner of holds, with varying degrees of real or illusionary lean) In most cases, I have to give power or we simply stop moving and he looks at me like "What happened?" (and then sometimes falls over since he wasn't expecting to stop)

    Also in most cases, the more experienced leaders can control how much or how little of the molinete (or multiples of them) I do, and exitis his pivot when he wishes. I don't know how to prove it to you. I keep saying the man never stops leading, but you seem determined not to believe me.

    I think we've reached an impasse.

    So you'll just have to take my word for it instead of using words like you did in the quote below to attempt to doubt (or even invalidate) my experience:

    I assure you that my teacher hates performance "tango for export" and went to a great deal of trouble to seek out older social dancers who would teach him how to dance in an actual crowded milonga. His first lessons gave him nothing he could actually use, so he found out quickly the difference and has a complete aversion to anything remotely alternative, open-embraced, showy, fantasia, non-rhythmic, etc, etc... he is probably more fanatical about "the REAL tango as danced in BA traditionally" than anyone I know, including posters here.

    And yet, I feel that you are trying to dismiss mine in every post. So I'm not sure you're in a position to scold either.

    And perhaps with a leader who was pivoting on one foot while they molinete'd, they'd do something else. Which brings up the question: Do you ever do that? Pivot on one foot while the follower does a molinete? That is at the heart of what we are discussing here. IF it's not a move in your repertoire, then how can you say what it takes to manage it?

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