Tango Argentino > how to do enrosque ( for a man)

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by aaah, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Are you kidding also?

    That's a gross exaggeration, a few toe taps on the upbeat that never
    get in the way. I think we can forgive that in an exhibition.

    Yes, he gives her time, and why not? That isn't back leading from her.
    You can see that amongst experienced dancers in WCS and the various
    jive style dances. Salsa and Latin dances even more so at times.

    No Lapis, no calesitas, no enrosques, not even a volcada.
    But there is an off-axis carousel but then again, it's an exhibition.
    It's still a very different dance from all the explanations being bandied
    about in this thread.

    No she would not. The partner's role is to stay with the man, not power him
    nor him heave her about. Any pivot is a result of the power of chest rotation,
    my partner is already with me - she is always with me.

    Maybe so, but I've tried to clarify that for better understanding.
  2. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    I'm not seeing what you're seeing, about the woman or Vidort.

    I would happily dance with her in a heart-beat, and anticipate enjoying every single beat.
  3. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Your interpretation of "art" may be looser than mine.
    Rather than really go off topic then maybe we should start
    a thread on Tango as Art/Is Tango Art or something like that.
    Permission to start using your quote(s) as well as mine?
  4. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    Oh, go ahead.
  5. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Funny that you find this tiresome considering you started it. This thread is about "how to do enrosque". If you don't like doing enrosque in your style of dancing, how about you just not post in the thread?
  6. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    And at other times Ricardo Vidort can be seen leaning slightly backwards,
    maybe it's an illusion but he goes back on his heels. He does what is
    necessary, that's what dancing as one body with four legs requires.
    Oh dear, a rubber stick!

    Moving on . . . you have written before about a disconnected torso
    but there is little disconnected about Liz Haight. It may be more difficult
    to sense her weight changes because she is on the balls of her feet and
    ankle flex absorbs the messages but I can't imagine that would
    have bothered Ricardo Vidort much.

    The only "disconnect" I see is that actually the dissociation required for
    the molinette in the turns in order to avoid turning the chest away.
    In other words, the pelvis swivelling for the legs separately from the chest.
    So moving the torso as one block is not this dance at its best.

    The more extensive the rotation, the bigger can be the turn. It should
    and can be helped by the man's complementary dissociation. It was
    missing from RV, but he was quite ill by this time and about 75 I believe.
    There probably is no video of Ricardo Vidort at his best.

    I disagree about Liz slowing him down in corridas and giros - she enables the turns.
    All of us are limited or complemented by our partners depending on relevant
    abilities and compatibility.
  7. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I consider taps, flicks etc to be adornments/embellishments. You apparently do not. The statement was made that he doesn't embellish.. in my view he does, and would not be doing so that naturally if he only did it in performance, IMO. We don't need to discuss that further here.

    I never said it was. I was merely pointing out that both of the people in the video were embellishing (by my definition) it wasn't a statement about backleading.

    I accept that you may have a different preference, but it does not make me wrong.

    The leader indicates that he wants me to continue going around by how he holds his chest. In order to stay with his chest, I must keep stepping around. He might give no power to the circular movement beyond how he holds his chest. If I added no power, we wouldn't go anywhere, and I wouldn't be staying with him because of the position of his chest in relation to mine. It's to stay in front of him that I have to keep going. The amount of power I have to give is variable from none to a lot. HE determines whether I need power or not, just as HE determines that I keep going.

    Oh for pete's sake... we'll just have to agree to disagree, I think.

    I would be interested in an answer to my question about whether you ever pivot on one foot while the follower does the molinete around you. If you do, I'd be interested to know how you make yourself go around if she adds no power to the circular movement. That would be in keeping with what the OP was asking (anyone heard from him since or did we scare him off?). I don't see any point in further discussion of it until you have clarified this.

    If you don't ever do that kind of pivot, then I don't see how you can claim it is or isn't done, and once again, further discussion of it with you is pointless.
  8. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I would prefer that you start the thread with your own words and I will add mine myself.
  9. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Note that things also happen behind the scenes.

    I have a pretty good idea what the consensus here is, and if you all want to go at each other, it's pretty much OK with me as long as you stay within the guidelines.

    While these are supposed to be discussions, if you simply can't toletate certain posts, I suggest that you ignore them and agree to disagree.

    I have great respect for all of you, and have never had to lock a thread, or give anyone a penalty or time out, so I ask that everyone think about letting this go.
    fascination likes this.
  10. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    If you look at how firm Vidort's torso is as he moves, you can compare it to Liz's torso which is noticeably flexible. That slight flex absorbs energy from the leader making the connection to the feet weaker. And, tbh, it doesn't seem like Vidort is really expressing the music as best he can.

    I don't see a problem with hip disassociation during the molinete, just when it isn't required.

    I really like the video of him dancing with Alejandra Todaro at Lo de Celia's from http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_5video/33ricardo.htm.

    But I can see the flex in her body!
  11. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    I don't think of actually doing molinete's. If they occur, it will be because of the music requires it. Also, it may really just be a 180 turn to get out of tight situations, i.e. floorcraft.

    There is the academic enrosque and then the incidental enrosque. The first is a dance class step. The one we're talking about usually just happens on a crowded floor.

    I'm perfectly happy with the definition X 100. :D

    In close embrace, you probably won't even feel that an enrosque was done. You'll just feel like you were moved around him.

    The REAL tango isn't in BA. The REAL tango is music. If one listened to the music, one can get a pretty good idea about how it feels to move to it.

    This is one type of enrosque but it would be inappropriate on a crowded dance floor. Two feet down offers the best stability and ease of navigation. That being said, I can pivot on one foot to lead a giro but I don't do it on a crowded floor, just when I'm screwing around and doing whatever.

    The impasse of this thread is the distinction between academic and social tango, especially on a crowded floor. The main discussion in this thread is about academic enrosque as opposed to social dancing. I also argue that the academic enrosque has no place on a milonga as it puts other couples at risk of contact and is inconsiderate of other couples. Wild movements make for unpredictability and this is dangerous, like a car swerving in and out of lanes on a busy highway.
  12. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I think you will find that other leaders disagree. There is no reason for a pivot on one foot to take up any extra room, and therefore no reason why it can't be done on a crowded floor as long as it is done well.

    That may be true for many people, but that doesn't mean that it is automatically unstable on one foot... it sorta depends on the person doing it, hence the OP's original question, which, if I recall, had to do with balance and stability.

    I can't remember if crowding was an issue for the OP.. if he has plenty of room, then it doesn't matter whether it is appropriate for a crowded floor since that wasn't a part of his question.
  13. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Yep. If you can do close embrace sacadas, you can do a close embrace enrosque pivot in about the same space.

    I think it's important to note you don't /have/ to do the whole crazy lapis thing. You can do an enrosque that lasts through one short turn. (FSB or BSF) There's even a way of dancing CE that allows for exchanging of momentum/energy where it would be appropriate to do so. For example, leading a follower into a quick turn, leader pivoting on the foot, then stopping her on one foot, converting to a calecita as the leader walks out of the enrosque. It can be fun to play with, especially during the sweeping/flowing movement of a Vals.
  14. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    OK, so since you say this thread is about the "academic" enrosque (as you call it), and you appear to be opposed to this move, why are you posting in this thread?
    bordertangoman likes this.
  15. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I pivot on one foot regularly when leading a molinette in close embrace. I usually have the other (free) foot next to the pivoting foot, rather than doing an enrosque. BTW, it takes up less room than the two foot (or 50/50) pivots.
    bordertangoman likes this.
  16. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    Because I understand your point about there being a need to discuss it, and even though I am against doing this in a social setting or even to tango music, I can see why people want to be able to do it. It looks cool. And since I can do it, I'd like to be able to offer my advice so people don't struggle. Because in the end, the longer it takes for someone to learn something like this, the longer they will stay at their present level and not advance beyond it.
  17. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    If you look at the video that was posted earlier with the red dress, you can easily see how much space that enrosque requires. I've been hit in crowded milonga's before by careless leaders when they opened up the embrace to do something fancy like that.

    You have to consider that it's 2 people moving. Even if the man has great balance on one leg, it doesn't guarantee that the woman he is dancing with does. She can pull him off balance easily if he is pivoting on one leg.

    It's wise to maintain as much stability as possible. It's safer, like wearing a seatbelt when driving. Always wear your seatbelt. But even more important, being on two feet allows for a quicker change of direction which is important to prevent a crash. Thts y u dnt txt n drv. Thts y u dnt txt n dnc.
  18. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Bsically I´m with you on this. Only wanted to record, that the off-axis variant usually is called calesita over here. The on-axis variant (especially the one done with a planeo) is rarely seen at milongas, whereas the off-axis calesita (the volcadized one) is done very often on crowded floors and very typical for the dancing style of that close-embrace milongueros.
  19. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    That´s one reason why I love DF [​IMG]
  20. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    Dancing last night (the non-performance kind). I found i was doing both kinds, and where the double weighted pivot changes to a single pivot. I wan't thinking particularly about them, I was just leading, and my legs were doing whatever was necessary to lead the molinete, smoothly, so there weren't embellishments or lapiz. It just seems a perfectly good way of doing something with your feet to enable the molinete to happen.

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