Tango Argentino > how to do enrosque ( for a man)

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by aaah, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, thank you.

    Also, Thanks to AndaBien (although it turns out I had guessed right about what you meant).
  2. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    In terms of the giro in open embrace, if the woman is upright, perfectly vertical when she takes a step, she will carry momentum through the turn. This is because when the body is perfectly vertical, the stepping foot will always be in front of the body. When the weight transfers, the momentum carries the body past the stepping foot.

    If you can imagine that these are legs in sequence...

    | > \ > | > /

    ... then you can see why the woman standing perfectly vertical can help during the man's enrosque by helping lead the man around his pivot, but only as long as she's perfectly vertical.
  3. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    I do axis awareness exercises; essentially akin to calesitas; and both lead and follow take turns; its a good way to improve balance whilst pivoting on one foot and to be aware of where your partner's axis is;
    In a practica one could extend this to letting the follower move you round while you practice your enrosques; ie moving your free leg into a coil in front or behind the standing leg.
  4. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    For me, the bigger issue is where she steps, and not so much how vertical she is. Basically, she needs to step on the circle around the leader (where the leader is the center of the circle. If she steps outside of the circle, she pulls the leader, and when stepping inside the circle, she pushes the leader. For whatever reason, when I pivot (without doing an enrosque), I (generally speaking) know how to compensate for any minor discrepancies, but I'm not at the level where I can compensate when pivoting while doing an enrosque.

    Maybe some day.

  5. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    You´ll never be ! :cool:

    I think it cannot be controlled at all, as soon as you have started pivoting. All the same with soltadas, the follower must already have received all informations when you let her go. The degree of your torsion holds all the informations she will need for her circle. So you only need some dissociation and balancing capabilities.
    While pivoting (with or without enrosque or planeo) you find yourself in a wormhole.
  6. tangobro

    tangobro Active Member

    Diego Blanco & Ana Padron. Their live lessons are good also. I often see them at local milongas, dancing with a variety of people, so they know what works in the milonga.
  7. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    Ya, me too. It's always seems to be a body shape issue with me. I can dance with my wife and lead just about anything I want and we just flow. I still have trouble leading some ladies in some "moves", enrosque is one of them. You've said you are usually the biggest guy in the room. Me too (6'2, 220lbs). I've spent so many hours dancing with my wife (5'2", 98lbs) I really have to adjust almost everything I lead when dancing with ladies who are built differently than her. That's just about everyone else...
  8. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    OH YES HE WILL:eek: getting into the panto mood..
    dchester and opendoor like this.
  9. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Does anyone know where the Dislike button is?
    opendoor likes this.
  10. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    When I was young and in the Army (running 2 -4 miles a day, along with 40 - 50 pushups and situps a day), I weighed 235lbs.

  11. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    Two ways to improve balance while spinning/pivoting is to 1) make the torso as vertical as possible and 2) make the torso as firm as possible.

    1) As you step into the turn/pivot, reach up into the sky with your head. You can imagine a string nailed into the top your skull and the string is attached to a puppeteer, who pulls at it each time you spin. This helps focus your mind on your torso, which is the most important part of the spin.

    2) As you spin, contract your core muscles to connect the chest to the stomach. This contraction stabilizes the torso and allows it to move as one instead of two parts.
  12. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    It's not just you. I struggled a lot with keeping my balance while being turned. For me, the trick was to do the completely counterintuitive thing: press with my standing foot in the direction I was falling. So if I was falling to the right, I would shift my weight to the right edge if my standing foot, and really press. Once I figured that out (a significant lightbulb moment) things became infinitely easier.
  13. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I've gotten completely lost in this thread as to what exactly anyone means by enrosque, but...

    If you are fine just having your feet together, but have trouble on a pivot with one foot tucked behind the other, my guess is that it has to do with how you are holding your hips. Proper placement of the pelvis in relation to everything else is harder when there is any crossing of the legs (Even just at the ankle) especially for someone who is (cough, cough) larger and does not have skinny ballerina legs.

    You may be dropping one hip (usually the free foot side, but sometimes people raise that hip deliberately in an effort to avoid it sinking, and that could also create a problem)

    You might be allowing your supporting hip to project slightly forward and it gets in your own way.

    You might be letting the hips continue rotating past the "finish" (which makes it hard to exit the turn because you get too twisted up, and again, the forward hip is in your own way)

    Or you could be doing any combination of all these things.

    If your hip positions are creating the problem, it would probably easier for someone to suss out what you are doing by observing rather than dancing with you. I wouldn't think you'd need a whole private lesson for that alone. (you might need far more than a private lesson however, to break whatever habit you've gotten into)
  14. LadyLeader

    LadyLeader Active Member

    IMO leaders' ability to move hips separated from shoulder movements is the core skill when doing enrosques. You need to create a continuous and stable turn in your shoulders to give the lead for the follower and in the same time move your hips in another speed and pattern.
  15. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    In this video around the 5:30 mark, Tete' does an enrosque with very little disassociation. (there are actually a number of various pivots he does in the entire video, but that one seems to be the easiest to see his whole body)

    I don't think disassociation is the main key to these things, and that even if it is necessary, it only takes a very slight amount.. enough for the follower to realize she's supposed to do molinete around the leader. Once she gets going, if she is from the "keep going until led out of it" school of molinete, the leader is just maintaining his position and going along for the ride.

    If disassociation is required at all, it is only for the purpose of leading the follower in her part, not for actually doing the movements themselves. Ballet dancers and skaters don't disassociate at the waist in order to pivot or spin.

    I also don't think I agree that the hips move at a different speed than the shoulders. They may start moving later, but I'm not so sure they move at a different speed once they are moving.... hmmmm....
  16. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I think what you are really saying is that she needs to keep her body position in relation to yours consistent.

    I get led in a lot of molinetes where the leader does enrosques or some other pivot that requires me to provide the energy for us to get around. (I spin him while he takes no additional steps) I've never had any complaints about me pulling the leader this way or that, but I KNOW my foot lands slightly outside the circle on my back ocho and slightly inside it on the front ocho (sometimes)

    But I make sure my body stays exactly the same distance from him at all times, and that the forward presence I give him is also consistent.

    I remember from partnering classes back when I took ballet, how much trouble it was for the guys to even just walk a ballerina standing in passe' around in a circle and not pull her off pointe. And it was even harder when the girl squiggled at all. The person going around has to also help compensate for any variations/slight movements in what the pivoting person does, unless the pivoting person is as firm and stable as a statue. (which is what the ballerina is supposed to be in those circumstances)

    Both people play a role in making the thing work because either one can ruin it quite easily and they each have to work with what the other does. (sorta like everything else in tango)
    LadyLeader likes this.
  17. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Uh... I'm really confused by this. The idea of her stepping foot always being in front of the body only applies to a forward step. Only 1 out of 4 steps in the molinete she is doing around the leader is a forward step. (unless she is just walking around him in all forward steps, but I doubt that is what leaders discussing this are going for is it?) And if she is doing "crossing" ochos, even the forward ocho step doesn't go forward of her body.

    I've done molinete with leaders who do a pivot, embellishment or enrosque while I go around, all while in an apilado lean and sometimes a true lean where there is weight sharing (not "the lean is just an illusion" type of apilado) Having me not vertical doesn't seem to hinder these leaders at all, but having me change the amount of lean or forward projection partway through probably would.

    Granted, this may be one of those instances where size matters... If the guy isn't much heavier than I am, maintaining the counterbalance while pivoting is probably much harder. However, the only ones who seem to do it without opening the embrace (and therefore making me vertical) are the ones who are bigger than I am, so that counterbalancing me is hardly felt.

    Ok... now I've twisted myself around in my head. Never mind...

    But I still don't get the point of the thing about the stepping foot always being in front of the body since that would only apply to 1/4 of the steps and only if she is doing pivoting type ochos, not crossing ochos.
  18. LadyLeader

    LadyLeader Active Member

    There is different ways to enrosque and I think you will find Fabián Salas doing it in Tetes way too. He is against disassociation and has introduced even the ochos without disassociation for leaders. (by that time he had not solved the problem for followers so they disassociated as usual.)

    But Diego Blanca and Ana Padron are using disassociation when teaching the beautiful basic enrosque in the first video. He is disassociating CW in the beginning (his/her left hips about in line); facing her while passing, enrosqueing (hips are facing); in the end his shoulder turn is behind and hips forward (his/her right hips about in line). So the hips are starting slower, catching up, passing by and then reaching the end position first compared to the shoulders.

    Performers are doing this in more elaborated ways and sometines turning the hips in opposite direction compared to the giro.

    I could not get exactly the right frames for these pictures but you find them on the video if you use the time indicated left down.

    Left hips meet here, leader is disassociating.
    Enrosques 1.JPG
    Leader and follower are facing, leader hips have catched up the follower
    Enrosque 2.JPG Enrosques 3.JPG
    Leader is disassociating again, hips are leading and the follower and leader have the right side of the hips near each other

    Just before this follower backstep, when the lady is stable in her axis/ pivoting, the leader will put the weight on the right foot and be ready to start the lapiz together with the follower backstep. This position gives the free space needed in front of the leader to fire out the lapiz! :)
  19. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    The Tete example isn't really an enrosque in the sense being discussed
    here. It's one time fleeting appearance is a result of being on one leg and
    him collecting the free leg while turning, everything he did with his legs/feet
    was a consequence of, or to facilitate, his own and his partner's movement.
    He might have been unaware of it and possibly could not have explained it.

    I still cannot understand why, in supporting every kind of flavour of tango,
    posters here do not clearly state what sort of hold or embrace is being
    considered. This changes the dynamic and relationship possibilities of
    the bodies. Here much of what Diego is turning looks more like torquing
    up (twisting/winding) the body rather than dissociation. And the relationship
    and movement of the bodies is very loose and variable to the extent
    that both can move freely.

    What works here doesn't work in true close embrace since this freedom
    doesn't exist and enrosques are no practical part of it.
  20. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I seriously doubt Tete' was ever unaware of what he was doing, although his ability (or lack thereof) to explain it would be a completely separate issue.

    I also don't think you saw the example I was referring to. He does do something like what you describe around the 5:25 mark right before doing the more full enrosque with one foot tucked behind the other.

    Besides... "being on one leg, collecting the free leg while turning, his legs/feet a consequence of his own and his partner's movement"

    That makes it not an enrosque?

    As we have determined, there are so many definitions of the thing, that somehow being on one foot, pivoting, collecting the free foot somewhere and having it all be a consequence of movement seems to be the only consistent factor!

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