Tango Argentino > how to do enrosque ( for a man)

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by aaah, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    Yes, it only applies to the forward steps while perfectly upright in an open embrace. The side and back steps will naturally be farther away from the body during the giro.

    The point I was making was a mechanical one in an open embrace: the woman perfectly vertical means forward steps are farther away from the body (it's just regular walking), which makes forward momentum easier in an open embrace enrosque.
    You aren't referring to the kinds of enrosques that is currently being discussed, the one with a single leg pivot as in the videos, are you? If so, it requires open embrace since a man spinning/pivoting on his axis needs to be perfectly upright and any weight forward throws off his balance.

    Talking about movement is really tricky since what one person means may be not be how someone else reads it.

    I just wanted to point out how important it was that the man position the woman upright to make his turn/pivot/spin easier. If the woman's weight is forward in the open embrace turn, the forward step will land directly under the body, thus losing momentum and possibly causing the woman to step short which will slow the giro down even more.
  2. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Ok.. I get what you are saying now. One of the areas of confusion is that I usually interpret "forward" to mean "towards the partner". I believe what you are meaning by forward in this instance is "towards the direction of the front step"

    Those two things aren't always the same thing.

    It is possible for the person being the axis of rotation to be off their own axis (ie: counterbalanced by the person going around and providing the momentum). You see it when the leader takes the follower off axis in a deep lean and then walks around her. Her "standing" foot becomes the pivot point, but she is not on axis over that point.

    Obviously that isn't an enrosque at all.. It's a volcada where the leader travels around her for awhile before putting her back upright. I only mention it because it illustrates that the pivot point is at the floor, not somewhere higher up in the pivoting person's (or the other person's) body.

    In practice, of course, pivoting another person in this manner usually only works well if the person whose standing foot provides the pivot point is smaller than the person who has to hold them up while moving around them. And of course, in the example above, the leader is setting up the move and then taking the follower's weight. It would be rather hard for the leader to lead the follower to take HIS weight and do all that. It probably could work as a bit of planned choreography, but not spontaneously at a social dance.

    So I guess my point is that what works easiest is not the limit of what is possible. That's why I question it when I read things (not necessarily from your post... just rambling here) that the leader or follower MUST do this or that. People can get all kinds of things to work. It's just EASIER a certain way.. not impossible any other way.
  3. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

  4. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    One of the things that make it very difficult for the open embrace enrosque to work is when the woman molinete's on her own, i.e. steps front-side-back when she isn't led them. This can slow or speed up the man's spin and possibly throw him off balance. To help prevent this, the woman must allow herself to be led. This assumes that the man can actually lead... and assumes the woman can actually follow... and that's a lot of assumptions especially when the women are usually taught the steps as well making nearly certain that they will unknowingly backlead.

    A woman made a comment about backleading after she switched roles and felt what backleading feels like: "it doesn't feel wrong" to backlead as a woman. This shocked me! :eek: It doesn't feel wrong to backlead. Wow... Her comment stuck with me and has helped to inform the way I dance - mainly, if a woman backleads, let her. She'll think I'm a really good dancer even though I won't ask her to dance again. ;) If women who backlead only knew.. they'd understand why the good dancers don't ask them to dance again.:D
  5. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I agree that the follower should not initiate a molinete on her own. The leader initiates the sequence. But the follower does usually have to power it beyond the first step, or it simply stops. The leader is still leading because he is still holding his body in the way that tells her to continue traveling around him and take steps. The specific embrace doesn't really change that.

    Perhaps we actually agree, but are caught in another semantics battle. I can only state that I power molinete's all the time and it doesn't seem to throw the leaders off their spins, pivots, enrosques, embellishments, balance, etc, at all.I don't consider powering the molinete to be the same as backleading. I find it disconcerting when a leader tries to pull me around in the M. thinking that I only respond rather than provide the energy. It's very uncomfortable that way, and none of the advanced leaders I know ever do that.

    I get the impression that you are saying the leader leads every step of the molinete individually. I recognize that some people teach/learn this, but most everyone I know treats it as a sequence that can be interrupted, but continues unless led otherwise. The leader's shoulder/chest position informs the follower that she is still being led to go around him.

    Depending on what the leader is doing with his free foot, he can't always provide any actual momentum or energy and it is completely up to the follower to make the thing go around in a circle. In reality, it's pretty much like everything else.. the leader gives an indication, the follower goes there without needing to be pulled, and therefore does not interfere with the leader's timing or intended movement. It's just that with some molinetes the follower does need to use a little energy to move the leader in his pivot (which he has LED her to do for him)
  6. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    The free leg can be used to generate angular momentum (spin) which is why the lapiz thingy/embellishments are so often used in a single leg pivot. It's not purely decoration in an open embrace enrosque.

    A woman who backleads may not feel that she is doing it in something like the molinete, especially in open embrace. This can potentially mean the woman unwittingly drags the man around in a complete circle, or whenever the woman decides to slow down enough to feel that the lead is trying to get her to stop. The backlead in this case occurs when the woman's torso moves slightly out of alignment with the front of the man's chest, forcing the man to turn even more to regain alignment, thus forcing the turn.
  7. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Using the free leg to generate extra spin is not part of the traditional enrosque. When performing the lapis, the leader should be stable.

    And I agree with Zoopsia. The tradition is for the follower to power the giro while the leader turns in the middle. Some beginner followers might miss the lead to stop, but often it's the leader who over-leads the turn with his chest while goofing off in the middle.
  8. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Thanks Peaches, that's a great tip. I will try that if I ever get anyone to lead me into a calecita again. ;)
  9. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Are you sure you meant a calesita? Sounds more like a planeo (own axis). In a calecita the follower is turned in an extrem volcadized position.
  10. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    I don't really recognise your distinction. My understanding of a Calesita is closer to:
  11. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Ok, but that hasn´t been my use of this term. As far as I understand Benzecry uses calesita as an umbrella term for anything that drags the follower around whether upright (planeo) or leaned forward (as shown here).
  12. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    The embrace does change that, although even in open hold
    the lady's molinette, or something more exaggerated, can be lead
    by the man although that may not be your preferred experience.
    I actually do consider the lady self-powering the molinette to be some sort
    of back-leading. I am not trying to do embellishments in the form of
    enrosques and other unnecessary actions but concentrating on my partner
    and dancing the music. It's a very different mindset.
    Shame none of you, where you are, are dancing the social Tango Argentino
    of Argentina. Visually leading from the shoulder/chest position doesn't enable
    interruption and response in the moment, only a physical step by step
    lead facilitates that. In fact I question whether the follower is being lead at all.
    By your own admission, she is powering the molinette/giro which surely
    makes her the leader, if only temporarily.

    The leader indicating and the follower responding by doing it herself
    is not really dancing together. The man is not leading if he indicates the lady
    to molinette which she then does for him.

    I know all this is taught, I dance sometimes with people who do it but
    not from preference. I am pointing out that there is another and, as a
    leader, much better way. Certainly it offers more musical dancing opportunities
    in the moment than molinettes and enrosques as sequences.
  13. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Perhaps I wasn't clear as to what I meant the embrace doesn't change. The embrace doesn't change the fact that the leader leads the entire sequence and can get out of it at any point. I have danced molinetes in all kinds of holds with all kinds of leaders. The more experienced of them are able to exit the sequence at almost any point. They do it with how they hold/change/use their body. It's pretty similar regardless of whether the hold is open or closed.

    It's only backleading if the leader doesn't want her to do a molinete. Powering a move isn't the same thing as leading a move. If the follower is led to do the whole sequence, then it isn't backleading to do it. You can't be doing what you are led and be backleading at the same time. Whether or not you are doing embellishments is irrelevant to that basic premise... if I'm led to do a move, then doing the move isn't backleading.

    I was taught molinete from someone who only danced the social dance of BA to traditional music, and I have danced it in BA. I seek out teachers who focus on that and I dance with a number of leaders who dance that way (in addition to more alternative leaders and a variety of holds) I can only think that we are somehow miss-communicating if you insist that what I am doing isn't "the social Tango Argentino".

    I also recognize that "You aren't dancing REAL Argentine tango" is a default argument on this forum though as a way to make a point. This time, however, it is an argument without merit.

    Yes, it does. You may not be able to do it, but it can be done. I've danced with leaders who do it, and I've followed it. Besides, just because someone is in a more open hold does not mean the lead is purely visual. We'd have to be not touching at all for that to be true.

    See above clarification about being LED to continue the movement and being LED to stop doing it. The follower isn't leading if she is being led.

    Ok... clearly we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this... If doing what I'm led isn't following, then ...uh... :confused:

    Well, yes, obviously your way is better... for all leaders.. their own preferences of what to lead notwithstanding. :rolleyes:

    I said repeatedly that the sequence can be interrupted or changed at any point. So it isn't limiting the musicality or "sequence preferences" of the leader at all. If this weren't true, then every time a follower gets a lead for a back ocho (especially to her right) she'd be off and running in a molinete. The entire sequence is LED and the exit is LED. If you and I danced, and you didn't lead the whole sequence, I wouldn't do the whole sequence. The amount of power I give to it depends on a number of factors... in your case, I probably wouldn't power it much at all. It's pretty obvious how much power a leader is expecting/needing/wanting me to use.
  14. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    If the follower gets out of her position with the man's chest, that is an error of her technique and isn't quite the same as what I thought people were meaning by backleading the molinete. Yes, it becomes an issue where the leader is having to "follow" her mistake to deal with the situation, but that's true any time she doesn't do what he led.

    In my definition of how the molinete is done, the leader is always leading the sequence without ever giving up the lead. I assumed that when posters said she is "backleading" they meant that she takes over the lead, not that she is trying to follow but makes a mistake in her following.

    So we have 2 definitions of backleading, one of which is deliberate and the other inadvertent... I guess both definitions are legit, but I have only been referring to the one that implies that the follower is deliberately taking over the lead, not the one about making a mistake.

    However, your post illustrates what I have been trying to explain... the follower is trying to maintain her orientation to the leader's chest which is how she is led to keep going around him. In doing so, she may be providing the power (usually) for the pivoting to occur, but she is still following his chest to take the steps. She has to take the steps to maintain her orientation to his chest. If she goes past his chest, that is a mistake because it is her job to maintain the orientation of the two bodies set by the leader.
  15. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Not to mention (regarding molinetes, led v sequence, etc.) I can think of two different ways I've felt it led. Just saying. And where does this completely and utterly incorrect idea that open embrace = leading/following by looking at the leader's chest come from? Malarkey.
  16. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Who cares? After all, it isn't the REAL Tango Argentino as danced socially in Argentina. ;)
    UKDancer likes this.
  17. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Oh right. Silly me. :p. :)
  18. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    I vote we make this the "Godwin's Law" of the forum. Anyone who invokes it immediately loses the argument. ;)
    UKDancer likes this.
  19. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Works for me.

    As a side note.. given the number of um... nazi's (I had to use the word, since it was who I am talking about.. does Godwin still apply?) who went to Argentina after the war, it's actually somewhat odd that Godwin's law hasn't reared it's head more often on this forum. They might legitimately be a part of a discussion of the history of Argentina, and by extension, Tango.
  20. Zhena

    Zhena Well-Known Member

    Of course you have the right to set your own criteria for determining whom you ask to dance ... but, in my opinion, your comment here is incredibly arrogant unless you can honestly claim that you can follow an entire dance without backleading. If you don't know how to follow without backleading, you have no concept of the difficulty of the task. I have been working on it since I started partner dancing many years ago, and though I continue to make progress, I sometimes experience lapses.

    So ... how good a follower are you?

    By the way, good dancers continue to ask me to dance, despite my occasional backleading ... the REALLY good ones are quite tolerant if you show you are trying to improve.

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