I'm looking at Sacadas...

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Mario7, Nov 29, 2009.

  1. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

    For the past month, I've been studying Sacadas (youtube).
    I've never really been able to pull off a clean, deft sacada..un blemished so to speak. They have all had 'problems' and were the results of luck and effort...never relaxed and exact. I took a workshop class in Sacadas from Maxi Gluzman where he taught that sacadas always involve a turn and that that is the real movement that is happening ..that the sacada is an optical illusion of sorts and that the lead should 'aim for the crouch'..ouch!:confused: ...I'm still trying.
    OK..so, I'm going to try some more on Tuesday nite..(by the way; last Tuesday my favorite dance partner was not present and so I tried only a couple of Giros with the Fly-like-a-butterfly partner and they were clean Giros..but no cigar, yet.)...my best sacada so far, was one I tried with the butterfly woman and it did lift her leg enough to kick a waiter who was walking across the dancefloor...I figure that it's served him right..anyway, that was my best shot so far and I want them to be something that I 'get' right most of the time.
    Any advice will be apprecatively received.:ladiesma:
    ...a question:..how long did it take you to 'get' the sacada? ..what/how did you finally 'get' it? ....tell us about it?? thks
    ..by he way..here is the guy who I am using as my model for the move..his dance seems to be built for sacadas. of course, my interest only goes as far as the close embrace dance..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfjsLjob0bM
    I also envy how Ruben can move onto the woman's left side after the sacada:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpewioCsWfw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfjsLjob0bM
  2. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Still working on them. Been working on them for years. It took quite a while before one variation felt good--note: not great. I don't know what happened. One time I was doing one in a lesson and it just felt different...it clicked...
  3. Mladenac

    Mladenac Active Member

    first you must train to move in a circular manner around one spot.
    after you are good at it.

    Step on you partners previous location. so that will make displacement (sacada).
    previous leg means near the leg with which you are making sacada.

    Or if you are not good at giros, do following.

    At same time go forward with your hips, and to the with your torso.
    Doing that from giro will make bigger sacada.
  4. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    It took me a lot longer than I felt it should to feel somewhat comfortable with sacadas. Sometimes I think it just takes me a while to figure this stuff out (and I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one). What worked for me was to focus on a single sacada. The easiest one is to sacada to follower's open step that comes after her front step in the giro. My advice is to just focus on one direction (either clockwise or counter clockwise) in the giro.

    Your step (to do that sacada) can be either a side step or a front step (when first starting out). If the giro is clockwise, your side step should be with your left foot. If turning CCW then use your right foot for your side step. If you opt for using the front step for your step, I don't think it matters very much which foot you use. When I first started, I found the side step to be easier with a CCW giro, but a front step to be easier with the CW giro. Eventually, I got a better with different variations.

    Once you figure out how to sacada her side step (the one following her front step), the other easy one is to sacada her front step in the giro. It is more difficult to sacada her back step, or the side/open step that follows her back step (thus I usually avoid those).
  5. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Re: sacadas

    Hi Mario, I find that sacadas are difficult stuff, too, especially in close hold. But, they are no obligatory element of apilado style. So feel free to leave them out, do volcadas instead. On the other hand I think a dancer should master different styles, including sacadas and neotango.

    Taking a closer look, I found 2 types of sacadas shown in the Tampera vid: sacada of the back-step in parallel system, and sacada of the side step within the molinete. You know that there are several tracks in the parallel stepping system. For the first type of sacada, the lane-shift is more important than the following sacada itself, because the leading comes from the torso. See dchester´s post for the latter type.

    - 0:12 (parallel system, same track) , lane-shift to left, same time sacada with LF , (small back-volcada ? or saludo following, difficult to see).

    - 1:01 molinete right, sacada with LF into the side step, parada.

    - 1:03 (woman crossed), (unturning), (woman projects back step), (still parallel system), lane-shift to right, same time sacada with RF , (changing stepping system with a small kick), walking on to the right side (parallel system, outside lane).

    - 2:14 molinete right, sacada with LF into the side step.

    May be some ideas that may help
    cheers
  6. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

  7. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Never use the word "always", I guess.

    There is a "fairly easy" to do line line sacada that can be done in both an open embrace, and in apilado. No turning involved.

    In both of these you are pretty much walking right into the woman's crotch. What happens, though, is that she doesn't remain in the same place, and that part of her anatomy has moved by the time your thigh gets there.
    In an open embrace you will probably feel contact calf to calf. In an apilado embrace there may/should be thigh to thigh contact (outside of man's thigh to inside of woman's thigh No crotch contact!)
    (I myself rarely get enough presence from my partner to make this doable, either by their choice or their lack of training in apilado.)

    This is because the soon to be unweighted foot stays in place for a short time as the body/stepping foot moves to a new position.
    (Stepping under your partner's body can be called an "entrada".)
    In "regular" sacadas it APPEARS that your foot is moving her foot, almost kicking it away, but she is in the process of moving the foot on her own, your body having initiated her movement; thus the "illusion".

    Oh, and "knowing" or "feeling" where the woman's weighted foot is, rather than guessing, makes a big difference in being confident about where you step.
  8. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    Good advice here. It's important to realize that the sacada is not a kick. It's a full step, with a full transfer of weight. So, the whole body - foot, hips, torso - does the sacada.

    In close embrace you can do sacadas at the level of the foot, calf or thigh. Avoid going for the knee. Also in close embrace, do them gently and slowly, so you get some pleasure from them.
  9. Lui

    Lui Active Member

    Hello Mario,

    during the sacada the leaders put his unweighted foot under the followers body. While transferring his weight onto that foot his body takes up the space primary used by her body. You better lead the woman into some sort of ocho like step during the displacement or otherwise she will be pushed over. Therefore, at least for the woman, there always has to be some kind of turn or you will end up with a Colgada or a fallen lady.

    At least when starting off, it’s a good idea to do the transfer very gently, since you will be close to the center of the rotation while her leg is moving at a larger circumference. Due to the leverage a small motion of yours will result in a big motion of hers. You can do the math what a forceful motion will do.

    Sacadas in giros will be easier when you do understand their function in that pattern. This will be easier if your familiar with the sacada already. Therefore, it might be useful to practice the sacada starting from a walk and then integrate it into a giro. You will get a plain sacada by changing into cross-system, lead her to your right side (and/or step so that she is on your right side). Now you may enter with your right leg and execute the sacada.

    I, however, believe that the real secret of the sacadas is not the step itself, it’s planing ahead earlier on. To get a smooth sacada you will have to prepare it two steps ahead. At the point of sacada you want your woman positioned in comfortable reach of your leg (Ok, that is not a problem in close embrace) Further you want to have an open corridor for your leg to move. Thus, you can find the contact in one smooth, short, straight and blind movement and don’t have to wiggle your foot in place cumbersomely.

    These preparing steps will depend on the desired sacada, the preceding pattern, orientation on the floor, final destination, the ratio of your and your patterns proportions etc. Ask your teacher to check your preceding steps and explain his ideas how to get into a sacada.

    Learning of youtube is an ambivalent experience. You will get no corrections and therefore very likely practice the wrong ideas. Moreover you can hardly see the dynamics of the lead and ask for the concept behind those patterns. If you are new to those movements the most important information will remain hidden from view.

    BTW, I always considered it a sign of real mastership to kick or bump into nobody, no matter how rough the floor is.
  10. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    Yes, another crucial point. I do lots sacadas with a single preliminary step, but sometimes two is necessary. Anyway, you can rarely just throw it in without the preparation for it.
  11. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

    Thanks everyone for the thorough treatment of this figure..tomorrow night I will try again with this additional investigation...I've been watching a lot of videos, playing music and practicing alone...so, I think it's fair that I try them in real life. :cool:
  12. Lui

    Lui Active Member

    Good Luck and have Fun!
  13. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    One more exercise I've found that helps me:

    Put a chair in the middle of the room. Stand at one corner of the chair. Then start stepping from corner to corner, circling around the chair, using the following pattern:

    Front step, 180 pivot, sidestep, front step, 180 pivot, sidestep, etc. Then switch directions and go the other way when you get dizzy. ;)

    During each step, keep your chest facing the center of the chair, with your arms in a circle above the chair. Trust me, this will help a lot!
  14. Mladenac

    Mladenac Active Member

    When doing that be careful about balance (weight transfer), during that exercise your elbow will point where you should step.
    later shorter the radius of the circle.
  15. Angel HI

    Angel HI Active Member

    Was very disappointed that I had missed this thread (holiday travel, etc), because I felt that everyone was missing the mark. Then, I read Steve's post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=749065&postcount=7, and Anda's follow-up.....
    .... are spot on.
  16. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure that we have covered the followers requirement to have a relaxed free leg; it needs to be relaxed primarily at the hip joint so the leg can be displaced without her being thrown which is what happens if her leg is stiff.
  17. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    That's the standard giro exercise, though, isn't it? I'm not sure where the sacada comes into it? :confused:

    But on that exercise, I'd also recommend putting something high on the chair (e.g. broomstick standing up), and focussing your attention on that - otherwise there's a temptation to look down all the time.
  18. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    hang a bottle of your favourite tipple at eye level; every time you get it right take a swig. eventually the room goes around you which saves a lot of time.
  19. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    It's the standard giro/sacada exercise. It's supposed to help you get the timing and pattern down for doing multiple sacadas throughout the giro. The leader never takes a back step, only sidesteps and frontsteps with pivots.
  20. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    but he can cross behind and unwind with a double weighted pivot.

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