Tango Argentino > Introducing the Giro to Beginners

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by UKDancer, Jul 8, 2012.

  1. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    ps; Gadrii Nombor Shulen Jongu (Tibetan)

    Giving an answer that is unrelated to the question.

    Guilty as charged m'lud



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  2. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    concerning the german quotes we came off well...
     
  3. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Well as leader who clearly doesn't get it, I would very much appreciate you spelling it out for me. Feel free to send me a PM if you don't want to post it in this thread.

    I can admit that I still have plenty to learn.
     
  4. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Good point, and I agree. This post has kept me from continuing (and sinking further) into the depths.

    :cheers:
     
  5. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    As we all know, every post sows seeds of other topics, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. You can try to herd cats, or you can run with them.

    I do wish the focus would remain more on the messages and less on the messengers.
     
  6. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    But again, not _all_ giros are the follower walking in a circle around the leader. Not even in close embrace, at least not clockwise (the counterclockwise giro with a centre in the middle is harder in parallel close embrace).
     
  7. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    I think the subtext is that followers don't like us leaders to complain even about things that _some_ followers occasionally do wrong (often not through a fault of their own, as sometimes they've been taught something that jars with your way of dancing and leading).

    I can certainly sympathize with some of that (for everything that followers do wrong there are ten things that leaders do wrong), but of course, as I'm a leader, I can only write from my perspective (that doesn't imply I think leaders are perfect).

    I'm perfectly happy to read posts of followers complaining about what leaders do wrong. I don't think there's a dearth of raw material, I have a practice partner who's a stickler for absolutely _everything_ including being given enough freedom to decide how much and when to pivot after an ocho cortado, and I'm grateful for all the times she points out that even though more than one thing 'works', some things are more pleasing than others.
     
  8. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    Of course, it could indeed be a follower thing and I might not be parsing it correctly.
     
  9. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    It sounds like we need a thread were the women can vent about all the things that leaders do wrong. Then we can (**cough**make excuses**cough**for our crappy leading**cough**) explain why we might have chosen to do it that way.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    Maybe I was reading a different thread. I thought leaders were discussing how to lead various rhythms (I know, not the original topic), and we were certainly pinging on other leaders. I don't recall anyone discussing how followers are doing it wrong, other than they were doing as they were taught.

    I have been hoping that some followers would join in and give their point of view, which would have been enlightening, I'm sure. And if any of our ideas were flat out ignorant, then I think we should be corrected.

    Let me ask:

    • How do most leaders lead giros, from a followers experience?
    • Do followers understand there to be a default rhythm?
    • If so, what is it?
     
  11. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Yes I agree. Christine Denniston tried to explain the walking turn being
    a series of turning arcs or something like that.. Your experience of the
    anti-clockwise turn being more difficult in parallel close embrace mirrors
    my own. It's worth experimenting to just find out how much the ease
    and/or difficulty changes for each direction depending on the orientation
    of the embrace and where the man's right arm/hand is held.

    As for a follower being a stickler for being given freedom to move,
    for me that's back leading and overturning beyond the movement
    indicated by the man.

    Sometimes women can be unnecessarily unpleasant about it resulting in
    an experience I prefer not to repeat. I can't altogether blame the women
    for expecting to be able to do what they have been taught but them rolling
    around on my chest is not part of my dance nor of social dancers in BsAs.
     
  12. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    From the PMs I received, it seems that some of the posts were perceived as leaders complaining (again) about followers. Whether that was the intent, could be debated (although not worth it, IMO), as the real point is that's how some posts were taken. Also, some posts that stated things as absolutes/fact/etc, also discouraged some posting.
     
  13. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Lol. I just re-read your posts from the first couple pages. You seem to be on a good path. The reality is AT is a small community, and if you are doing your part to grow it, kudos to you. No teaching method is perfect, and as long as the intro course gives them a good feeling about continuing dancing, then mission accomplished. :cheers:
     
  14. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    Jeez. I don't know what to say.

    It seems that if I want to know some diverse ideas, I have to PM a third party and ask what someone else had to say.

    In this forum, at least, people often have contrary ideas about what other people say. Like it or not, and I do, people have various opinions about tango. I'd love to know what those ideas are.

    If any of those followers want to complain about leaders in general, I encourage them, bring it on. Their experiences and ideas may meet opposition and/or explanation, but at least the leaders will have had the opportunity to think about some ideas that are new to them.
     
  15. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    It's been done before. Didn't end well. Not making the same mistake twice.
     
  16. bafonso

    bafonso New Member

    I'll bite. A great teacher has told me that for her:

    - the man just needs to convey/lead he wants her to go around him
    - the woman can have or not rhythm... the man can obviously lead slower or faster giros (this is why some women are more musical than others..)

    I honestly don't know what the letters mean that people keep throwing around but in tango, unless explicitly lead otherwise, women go around in a side, back, side, front. it's that simple.
     
  17. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    I confess I used to have a similar opinion, but give a lady not an inch of wiggle room to express herself, choose the timing or choose how to adorn and it's my experience she finds it quite suffocating. Followers apparently don't like to feel like just a tool to paint a dance with (some enjoy not having to make any decision, but I've found them to form a minority, especially if you consider the followers with lots of experience and skill).

    But of course, the devil's in the detail. In the particular example (finishing the ocho cortado) I think there's no harm in telling a lady where to go to but not "jam it shut" so there's no room for her to decide exactly when to rotate to face the leader _exactly_ again (although in strict parallel close embrace there's bound to be less wiggle room anyway).
     
  18. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    AndaBien, very often it´s simply a question of different experience! Contrary ideas only arise due to different opportunities, skills, years, stimuli, teachers. I think it takes a lot of experience to contradict your former teacher who claims that this or that was the right way. And up to that point the dancer is kind of his teacher´s voice. Not the style, nor dance technique or different approaches, nor didactics and philosophy seem to be the problem. The problem is the prevailing envying contemporary teaching culture.
     
  19. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Those that find it suffocating wish to dance independently,
    or at least have that opportunity at times. This is a social dance
    and the more crowded the floor the less that is possible.

    And just who are ladies adorning for? It's not her partner
    who cannot see such things but can feel the interference.

    "Followers" (I don't particularly like the word as it downplays the actual
    role of women in the dance) are not tools - man and woman dance
    together each playing their part in the partnership.
    Frankly, I am happier to dance only with the minority then who
    understand and appreciate tango as a joint dance of the senses.

    Cannot agree less! I never open the embrace.
    It's social tango by and for both partners,
    not tango for display to an audience.

    But I wouldn't pretend that it's a dance for everyone.

    Here's an example of what causes such confusion:
    There is one of your independent women teaching essentially
    what she wants, not the tango of one body and four legs.

    Now we can all have your own different views about it but
    then saying:
    the woman can have or not rhythm...

    is not acceptable to me.

    One of the sensual connections is indeed auditory,
    that of hearing the same music and dancing to it.
    Rhythmic connection is the basis of, and influence on,
    every partner dance I know. It is perverse to claim
    otherwise and that, in the most intimately connected
    partner dance of all, marking the rhythm is unnecessary.
     
  20. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    Neither do I necessarily do (and in the particular case I'm talking about, I never do. But there's a way to leave the follower some room to dissociate in order to manage the timing of what her different body parts do, and there's a way to force her to 'simply' stay fully parallel to you with her entire body by pushing her rather than inviting her into the cross.)

    You assume too much, I think. Wiggle room is not the same as leaving her to do her own thing independently of yours, and I think you're tilting at a windmill that I didn't built (if you pardon the expression, I don't mean this in a derogatory way, just implying there is some miscommunication).

    You profess to prefer to dance with followers who want to create a shared dance, but if you micromanage absolutely _everything_ the follower has to do into minute detail has to do then there is little "shared" dance.

    I also disagree vehemently that follower adornments are necessarily "for the audience". The best ones are expressions of musicality and express how the follower feels the music "breathes". They're also certainly not all creatures of open embrace or stage dancing.

    Glad we agree at least about that. "Not marking the rhythm" to me means relying upon the follower to know when to step (she's often better at it than you are, given you have other things on your mind too). That doesn't mean opening an embrace, but that does tend to work better with some elasticity in the embrace.
     

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