Tango Argentino > Introducing the Giro to Beginners

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by UKDancer, Jul 8, 2012.

  1. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    p.s. I actually _enjoy_ some follower adornos, as a partner, because I feel them and enjoy them as expression of how the follower interprets the music or the playful dance we're weaving. I don't think they're just a source of noise distracting me (at least not if they're done well).

    All those who like to do them can dance with me rather than JohnEm ;-).
  2. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    On the subject of the embrace, I do think I'll never _force_ a lady to dance in strictly parallel embrace all the time with me. Leaving her the opportunity to either "Vee" the embrace a bit or not, she can take it or not take it.

    If I don't leave her the opportunity, then I am effectively forcing her into a given style of dancing which may not be hers.

    And even if she wants to dance in strictly parallel embrace, she can choose to do so without being _forced_ to do so.

    Even strictly parallel embraces with strong apilado, I don't like coercion (in fact with some ladies they'll have their arm wrapped so far across you that you don't even need _any_ hand at all to lead them, so why clamp them in a vice? They're perfectly able to be a partner at keeping the embrace working, so long as you keep on leading "desde el alma" correctly).
  3. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    You make some interesting points even if I might disagree . . ;)
    Writing about an intensely personal and physical experience is always
    likely to lead some miscommunication, we should accept that as you are.

    The wiggle, or even wriggle, room that you indicate I understand even
    though in its worst form it feels totally restless to me. You know I'm not
    "forcing" any one to stay in parallel close embrace as in the main I only
    dance with those who are willing to do so. That's my choice and theirs.

    Equally I don't "drive" her but we move willingly together.
    It feels a different dance to the one you describe.

    There is a misunderstanding about dissociation though.
    Dissociating is required to dance within an unchanging embrace,
    the greater the dissociation possible by the lady the more the fluid
    the dance with one caveat. Despite appearances to the contrary,
    this is a dance of equals, it's the two roles which are different.
    The man should be able to dissociate too and have the ability to lead
    with the chest relatively independently of pelvic movement.

    So in my view you don't give room to allow dissociation, you give room
    because he and/or she do not dissociate enough for the movement,
    or for her own exaggeration of the movement.

    One the contrary, there is no independent movement, it is completely shared.

    No, again we move as one but she lands her foot on the beat - the same
    beat I do - it's what keeps us together.

    And going on to parts of your next post not already covered:

    This is a partnership dance of the willing.
    There is nothing forced - I choose not to dance with those who are unwilling and they would probably choose not to dance with me.

    Going back to Buenos Aires and most of the milongas of central
    Buenos Aires, most of the dancers there are the willing.
    They know what to expect from their men, it's what they dance for.

    Leaving aside the question of what is "strong apilado", there is no clamp.
    My right arm is wrapped right around her and we can dance as one
    using only my right and her left arms. It is possible as an exercise
    to dance to a certain extent with no arms at all.

    Sixela, thanks for the conversation.
  4. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    hmm, all this discussion about allowing the follower freedom

    reminds me of this

    Everyone's going to be free
    But they'll have to agree to be free
    They'll have to agree to be less free than me
    'Cos I rule the world you see


  5. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    don't want to disturb your dreams, but this discussion/thread is a european question ....

    as far as I remember I met at one go 8 girls form my hometown over there, found nice people form London, Munich, Amsterdam, Prague, Rom, Paris, Barcelona, Ankara, ...

    To dance with skilled argentinians (teacher, performers) I have to go to Berlin in summer :cool:
  6. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    You're certainly right . . and perhaps an American question too.

    Certainly not a question within the social milongas of Tango's
    capital city.
    No thanks, I'll dance with the people who love the dance in tango,
    not with the people who dance for the love of the money in tango.

    And on a practical level, my reality is that teachers and performers
    are best avoided.
  7. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I was surprised to find how much agreement I found with some of your points. That is my preferred style. For me, it places a high value on the embrace, connection, whatever you want to call it. However, I do dance other styles to some songs that inspire me in different ways (of course the follower will certainly influence how I dance, as well).

    I do (at least sometimes), try to match a follower with how I'd like to dance to a given song/tanda. Sometimes it hurts me, due to around here, people will often have their partner selected before the tanda starts. I prefer to wait until the start of the tanda to then select a partner who I think might enjoy how I'd like to dance to that tanda.

    Of course, there are also times when I'll try to find someone I've never danced with. Sometimes, it works out well, and other times . . .
  8. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I thought JohnEm was one of you Europeans.

  9. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    I suspect there's a lot less difference between my preferred style and that of JohnEm and dchester than would appear from this thread. I still think that _even_ in parallel close embrace, though, I should dance _as if_ the lady were free to select another close embrace that is slightly less parallel, even though some ladies don't.
  10. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    I'm delighted we can agree.
    Of course that's entirely your own choice - mine is not to do that.
    I prefer to stay within the embrace, it's surprising and rewarding
    to allow to your dance to respond and be influenced by the music.

    And you are right to highlight how much influence a lady's (avoiding
    the word "follower"!) ability and character has on the resulting dance
    An onlooker might perceive that we're just dancing in the embrace
    but we know different, we can both feel it.

    And talking about other music, it's worth noting that argentines will
    dance other music in the embrace that's possible, they just call it
    dancing, not tango. I regularly danced the Paso Doble at Lo de Celia
    with one particular dancer. It wasn't tango, it was movements to the
    music (very swirly at times) but it was entirely within the embrace.

    That definitely reflects the majority preference in Buenos Aires.
  11. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    No, just give her a hug!!!!!

    And hug as if you mean it . . . . :)
  12. jantango

    jantango Active Member

    If a woman doesn't dance chest to chest (parallel apilado) in tango, it's probably because she never tried it with an Argentine.

    Those who stay in the V embrace for freedom to embellish are more concerned with their feet than listening to the music and feeling it with their partners.

    I have no idea what my feet are doing when I dance, and I don't care. The embrace and the music take me to where I don't think, I only feel.
  13. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    I don't think that's true. Undoubtedly you know "Terpsichoral Tangoaddict" and she's been a resident of Buenos Aires for a long time.

    I also think it's a false dichotomy: in reality there is a continuum with no V to a lot of V, with some followers adopting no V for walking and very, very little V for other figures to add some spice to give just one example.

    Mathematically, you're only _strictly parallel_ with a zero probability (which doesn't make it impossible ;-) ) when you measure it with enough precision.

    I also think that attributing intent to people dancing another style than your own preference is often a little presomptuous. You don't have to like the way others dance, but it's a bit dangerous to just assume they are unconcerned with listening to the music and their partner (especially given that there's ample evidence of musicality in some performance dancers that have radically different styles).
  14. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    I do. I just don't give her a squeeze, but a gentle carressing hug.
  15. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Yeah. This is why we can't have good conversations on this forum. It's perfectly fine to have a favorite style, but why resort to belittling everyone else's way of dancing?
  16. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    If only it was that simple. Fact is though that parallel chest to chest
    doesn't suit everyone's character, personality or confidence. The man
    has to be right in subtle ways, look, smell & feel even. This is personal
    and some women don't want to be that personal or share space
    that intimately. You might argue they shouldn't be dancing tango
    but that is pointless.

    Out in the barrios at the family evenings, when Mother was chaperoning,
    the Vee hold (for it's not an embrace) would be seen as being decorous,
    seemly or discreet. In todays more relaxed social climate, parallel has
    become the norm but it doesn't mean that absolutely all argentines
    dance it. There are argentines here in the UK teaching the dance
    of Los Dinzels and The Mondial.

    Those that do that are usually embellishing at the expense of
    connection and the music. But not everyone in the Vee hold decorates
    feverishly or incessantly and some don't embellish at all.

    Of more concern to me is that the physical connection is not the same
    and it becomes a blunter less subtle dance with points of connection
    and strong arms. In other words the invisible "frame within the core"
    of apilado becomes a visible and external frame/hold of toned arms.

    I agree.
  17. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Probably because guys tend to belittle each other (about any and everything), when there are no women around. So, I guess if people want more posts from the women, we'll have to restrain ourselves better.

  18. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    I know "Terpsichoral Tangoaddict" , meaning I have seen her in Cachirulo a few times, she just started showing up there a few months ago. I have never seen her before that, or in any other Buenos Aires milongas I dance at, and I doubt she has ever been to Lo de Celia where Jantango usually dances. So it is not that evident that they must be acquainted.
  19. I find that odd, because a lot of people I know use to dance chest to chest, but after a trip to BA, they said that everyone dances "V" down there at the Milonguas they went to and now the "V" style has grown here in the last 4 years or so because of BA influence.
  20. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Every style imaginable is danced in Buenos Aires, so if someone is claiming that "everyone" dances in style "X", they simply didn't get around to enough places. In my brief visit, what I would say is that certain milongas tend to have a style that people adhere to, but not all milongas / practicas conform to the same style.

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