Tango Argentino > Introducing the Giro to Beginners

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by UKDancer, Jul 8, 2012.

  1. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    It's such a shame really. Most of the tango bands that I hear today, seem to fixate on jazz arrangements of the classic songs (trying to make every song sound like Piazzolla or something). While I like a few tandas of it in an evening, I don't like when it's the focus of the entire evening.
     
  2. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Perhaps you should reread what I've written before making such an
    accusation. I don't expect anyone to necessarily agree with what I say
    but I've expressed no rules only preferences and a clear statement
    of what I experienced. It was that personal experience that was
    rather arrogantly disputed.

    I accept that the social dance of BsAs is not the dance taught abroad,
    but I think it's reasonable for you to at least accept that there can be
    a different view about what could (and I would say should) be taught.

    I prefer to think of social tango as a participatory pastime. Calling it art
    may be indicative of the problem, art is for the stage or performance.
     
  3. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    No, you are wrong about me having a hang up about going
    to Buenos Aires. And right about not going to Buenos Aires doesn't
    diminish a person's dance nor their pleasure. Except that it does
    diminish their potential pleasure because people here are not taught
    the uniquely sensual social tango of Buenos Aires.

    It should because you are disputing my experience without ever having
    been. also you are purporting to teach Argentine Tango but by your own
    admission what you are actually teaching is English Midlands Tango.
     
  4. jfm

    jfm Active Member

    Well,
    when I danced in BA, traditional packed out milongas, when we did a giro, it was in the "straight on" back-crossing no dissociation way because there wasn't room to do the salon style full pivot, big step style giro. Because of body mechanics you end up doing a quick-quick for the back cross and side step with minimal pivot. Villa Urquiza/Salon style, whatever you want to call the more roomy, twisty style that a lot of people dance in the UK and continental Europe allows you more space in the embrace and some flexibility so there is room to dissociate and do those big giros. When you have the space to dissociate, you can do SSSS (apparently in open embrace SSS is the default). It's easier to learn SSSS, and adapt depending on the lead whether you throw in some QQ somewhere, than to auto learn SQQS and then break the habit. The 'heart' stuff has nothing to do with SQQS or SSSS, that's about maintaining a connection with your partner (in terms of upper bodies or spiritually and stuff like that). Unless you mean it literally and then it means she's talking about dancing apilado- that makes any discussion of a giro that involves a lot of dissociation moot.
     
  5. bafonso

    bafonso New Member

    To which milonga are you referring to? There are dozens of milongas daily in buenos aires and they all different styles.

    Only non-argentines say such nonsenses like you are saying.
     
  6. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    If I issue class notes, should I print a warning or disclaimer in red ink at the bottom, then? The whole thrust of your case is just so silly, that I really don't have the energy to debate the matter with you any more.
     
  7. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    There is no didactic rhythm to the giro. It is more commonly danced to a specific rhythm depending upon the style of the music, but has no rule that says it must be danced in either. The quicks or slows are more correctly determined by the amount of space (rotation) created by the lead/follow (depending upon whose molinete you wish to discuss).

    As for these.......
    This just simply isn't true. Everything can have an artistic quality (eating, speaking, hairstyling, washing a car) without being a performance.

    And, the heart of the following impasse might simply be the highlighted word 'here'. In other places, this might be taught very well.
     
  8. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Read the thread, read what other people write elsewhere.
    Social dancing argentines usually write or say nothing much
    except maybe for dismissing what we get taught/dance as
    "tango for export". That should tell you something.
     
  9. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Please yourself.
    You haven't debated except for picking snippets to snipe at.
     
  10. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    Two things:

    Firstly, I accept that in traditional close embrace the giro is executed by the follower with little or no dissociation:
    but it is only in some particular styles of tango, danced all over the world and only in certain parts of BsAs (to say nothing of the rest of the rather large country that is Argentina) or, say, Uruguay, that this close embrace is maintained constantly. A more open or flexible embrace, typified, arguably in VU, requires different body mechanics.

    Secondly, you do seem to be agreeing with the Denniston timing formula, and for the same reason she cites: body mechanics.

    I don't know whether your reference to 'when I danced in BsAs' refers to the recent past, or a considerable time ago, but Denniston's claim is that her dancing (or at least her description/account of the dance) is based on the dancing of another age: not the present. I have no difficulty of accepting that current dancing in any location is not the same as it was over half a century ago (if we take the Golden Age to have ended in 1955), and I would be interested if anyone could point me to film of ordinary social dancers dancing at that time. She may be right, or she may just be making it up: I don't know, but the fact that the dance has moved on under the stewardship of the current generation, many of whom were young children, themselves, at the start of the tango renaissance (let alone at the end of the Golden Age), doesn't really settle the matter.
     
  11. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    In different words, but yes.
    Yes indeed, but art is in the eye of the beholder, in other words it's
    someone else's judgement. The attitude of an individual considering
    what he or she dances as art is what bothers me. Such a view is
    more appropriate to a performance dancer than a social one.
    "Here" in this context means virtually anywhere abroad outside
    Argentina, whether taught by ex-pat Argentines or not. There are
    exceptions to such a wide generalisation but they seem to be few.

    And "here" also means here on this forum. The writers "here" seem
    unwilling to accept that just maybe there is another dance called
    Tango, danced socially mainly in central Buenos Aires , that is at
    least worth investigating.
     
  12. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    I seem to recall Juan Carlos Copes saying something similar about how it had changed
    (and not for the better in his opinion.)
     
  13. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    AMEN and BLOODY HALLELUJAH!!!
     
  14. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Funny, I understand it perfectly and agree...in spades. It must be a follower thing.
     
  15. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    More AMEN and FRIGGIN' HALLELUJAH!
     
  16. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    I can claim that rather easily because I´m sure we got totally different concepts of what the Golden Age actually was as the following words reveal

    But actually there have been four totally different and rivalling music styles or concepts during those years, at least three different styles of dancing, two totally isolated social dance communities and a huge number of dancers that changed their dancing style according to the music played or the venues they visited.

    Insofar I would recommend speaking much more specifically and to address the styles, the years, the orchestras, and venues exactly.

    Golden Age (narrow sense)

    My definition of Golden Age referres to the craze of 1935 (up to ca. 1943) . On the contrary the official ending of the Golden Age is seen in the ban of large gatherings such as club events some years later. But for me that only was the final blow of a movement almost completely burned out by the depression.

    The craze of 1935 was accompanied by a dramatic deterioration of the music culture (d´Arienzo´s promotion, the renaissance of rhythm, tango bravo) and by a drastic simplification of the dance style (estilo club). All together token of mass phenomenons, advanced commercialization and POP-culture.

    But the tango de salón culture as well as the down-town tango scene outlasted that craze. And thus the great orchestras of that period produced simultaneously (but unmixd) at least music for 2 different audiences (salón and club): F/i Troilo-Fiorentiono supplied the club community, Troilo-Ruiz served the salón community, and Troilo-Marino used to produce some hits for the radio. All the same with diSarli, Fresedo and Pugliese from mid 30s up to mid 40s. The other orchestras were more or less addressed to only one of the said above audiences.

    By the way, Denniston isn´t that far away from my explanation http://www.history-of-tango.com/history-of-tango-dance.html
     
  17. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    This only started as a very modest question about a method of introducing the giro to beginners for the very first time - a reasonable enough topic - but I agree that it has become rather daft, and I, for one, have nothing more to say on the subject.
     
  18. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Agreed, and I can't blame you. Give it a couple of more years, and you'll understand why I don't really ever bother posting anymore.
     
  19. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    Ha ha: I doubt it will take that long!

    Well, there's a new topic for discussion, anyway.
     
  20. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    More AMEN and FRIGGIN' HALLELUJAH!
     

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