Tango Argentino > Is Tango Danced on the Falkland Islands?

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by UKDancer, Mar 9, 2013.

  1. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    But to me all of those are different things. I certainly prefer followers to be as close to me as possible and even to resist in movement so that we're joined at the chest. Sometimes that leads me into an embrace that is apilado, sometimes it does not, and as I said, there's a continuum around the point in which both partners are so far forward that they'd fall without the other partner, as far as I am concerned.

    But perhaps you lament things that I too would lament - I certainly would find it sad for teachers not to teach how to commit yourself to your partner in the embrace. It's hard to guess since I can't experience the teachers you experience.
  2. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Not being in the UK, I don't know what typically attracts people to tango there, but here in the US, it is rarely anything to do with the culture of Argentina. People are first attracted to tango by seeing tango and then they delve into Argentine history or culture as an afterthought (or not)

    I suppose that if the US entered into some major conflict with Argentina, then it would be hard to market "Argentine Tango" to people who had never seen it or heard of it, but for the most part, everyone who tries out tango HAS seen some variant of it and that's why they decided to learn it. They could possibly be influenced against it if their favorite brainwasher , uh, I mean, news outlet spoke against it, but most likely it would go the way of Freedom Fries (remember them?) and quickly turn into a non-issue

    Mostly though, what people see first as AT bears little resemblance to actual AT and if it got re-labled Freedom Tango, nothing would change much at all.
  3. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Yeah... that was my first thought too. 32 years? Really? Yikes!
  4. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I have heard, through anecdotal accounts relayed to me (male dancers who have had conversations with milongueros) that the idea of the milongueros not showing off is a romanticized myth.

    According to the guys I have talked to about this, the M's DID show off. Deliberately and frequently. In fact, much of how they developed their own personal styles and moves was specifically about one-upping each other and showing off to one another. And when they weren't showing off their own dancing, they were positioning their follower to show her body (and booty) off to their rivals.

    Many of the M's had massive egos and the notion that they never showed off seems almost ludicrous.

    However (and this is a really BIG however) in the tango culture of their time, their desire to show off, and the way they developed their dancing towards that end, took them DEEPER into the music and promoted an increasing level of connection to their partner as well as respect for other couples on the dance floor.

    Personal music interpretation played a big part in what they were showing off.

    Having the woman appear totally enamored of him (and being enamored of him) was part of a milonguero's goal, not just so he could potentially take her home, but so his buddies would see that he had won her over.(even if only for the length of the tanda)

    No-one could impress other milongueros by being a rude boor to other dancers. It was totally contrary to the suave and sophisticated image they were trying to create of themselves.

    Sadly in many (if not most) tango communities worldwide now, showing off does the exact opposite. The show offs often pay LESS attention to the music and its nuances, and they often completely ignore the needs of their partner (and I'm not picking just on leaders here.. follower show-offs do it too) If they aren't concerned with connecting to the music or to the person they are dancing with, you can bet that they aren't too concerned about others on the dance floor either!

    So the real difference is not whether the old-timers did or didn't show off in their youth (and even now as they are older) The difference is in what showing off meant for their dancing, and what exactly they were trying to show. For the milongueros. it actually improved and enhanced their dancing. For most tangueros/tangueras today, their dancing suffers when trying to show off.
    JohnEm and pygmalion like this.
  5. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    I guess you would call it VU. Sometimes there is quite close connection, but it occurs at the leader's R shoulder and tends to lock his R arm down near his side. The embrace also seems to open up whenever they start doing fancy footwork. I've heard that called "dynamic embrace".

    The way I learned apilado the embrace was, as someone here called it, "headlights to headlights". The lead was in the chests and almost nowhere else, ala Tete.
  6. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    I've been told by a certain older porteño stories of discussing tango steps on a bus and getting off the bus right then and there to demonstrate or try out some new step idea on the sidewalk. And when they were done, get back on another bus.

    Maybe they were not dancing in crowed dance floors, but I don't imagine that all the extroverts danced on large floors, while introverts dance on small floors.
  7. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    That was my experience when I was first starting.. I had a very traditional teacher and everyone else was learning from someone else. We were almost alone in doing a more "milonguero" style (complete with crossing ochos instead of pivoting ochos)

    However, slowly my area is developing a greater level of interest in traditional. Now it's the folks who prefer alternative who are complaining that "tango is changing".

    Recently I went to a milonga that was as crowded as any BA milonga I attended. It took almost 1/2 the night, but eventually everyone adjusted. In fact, the more crowded it got, the better they adjusted. It's as though there's a mid-point where attempting larger and more showy dancing still seems (to some people) possible and problems get pretty silly. Then when things get more packed it's obvious even to the most dim-witted that you have to dance small and close, and anyone who doesn't like to do that ends up leaving so that it all works.

    IME, it's always the "more crowded than usual, but not REALLY crowded" floors that end up having the most collisions and problems.

    Sorry I seemed to have added tot he totally off-topic posting...

    Uh... Falklands... um... are they traditional there?
  8. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    lol. Join the club.

    A couple of really interesting and informative off-topic posts, though. I have to give you credit. :)
    Zoopsia59 likes this.
  9. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Go for it! I LOVE alternative.

    I sorta stink at pronounced V-embrace, but I don't HATE it. At least there is torso contact along one side. I just have trouble adjusting to having my head turned to my right.

    The only thing I dislike intensely is "close embrace" where the bodies are about 1"-2" from touching at all, and the connection is in my armpit. I'd rather just dance open.

    Sadly, that seems to be getting more popular here. The guys seem afraid of boobs or something. Why dance close if you aren't going to let your torso touch the other person? I really don't get it. Although in some cases, it's due to slouching rather than any deliberate attempt to avoid contact.
  10. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    What I call "dynamic" is when you walk (in all systems) 'headlights to headlights' but change to a VU-style V embrace for giros. Ochos are sometimes dissociated, sometimes ocho milonguero.

    VU is, well, VU.
    bordertangoman likes this.
  11. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I want to dance with you!
  12. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    So, how do we reconcile Jantangos conversations with milingueros where they state they didn't show off? They won't fess up to a woman, but will tell it straight to a guy?

    It's pretty well established that memory is a fairly unreliable thing. And yet most of people put great stock in it.
    And now, see how far off topic this is! Read the wikipedia article on the Cakewalk and see the first hand, second hand, and "academic" (hence most repeated, most popular) versions of history.

    And, back on topic (sort of) for a bit... Patogonia seems to have a fairly high percentage of decendents from parts of Britain, although not as high as the Falklands. There are they people who moved there to raise sheep. Not sure why the Welsh went to the coastal town of Trelew, but there they are, and I'm sure I could find out if I took a few minutes to poke around.
    Here's one link if anyone is interested. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_settlement_in_Argentina
  13. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    Christine Denniston is pretty clear about the show off behaviour of the dancers of the 40s too. Perhaps Jan just likes the company of diffident and shy old men?
  14. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I thought I sorta addressed that towards the bottom of my post when I talked about WHAT they considered to be of value to merit showing it off.

    Besides that, I think it DOES matter whether they are talking to another man or to a woman. They didn't tell ME these things, which is why I pointed out that I heard these things from MALE dancers who had talked to them. Just who they're giving the false impression to is debatable. I could see reasons why they would mislead other men AND I can see they might mislead a woman.

    I can see that the M's might be full of boasting and hot air in either situation (maybe both) for completely different reasons. I certainly can't imagine a M. telling a woman about how he positions women so that her butt faces the tables for his buddies to get a good look. I CAN see him exaggerating the extent to which he does that if talking to a man, just as I can see him exaggerating his exclusive emphasis on connection and caring for his partner if he is talking to a woman.

    I also think you have to allow for differences in the definition of "showing off" when different people use the term. Possibly in Jan's lingo (or what the Milongueros assume to be her lingo when discussing this) "showing off" means doing stage dancing that is inappropriate at the time (and space) without concern for the music, your partner or other dancers. By that definition, the milongueros don't show off and would rightly deny showing off if that were the situation under discussion.

    However, if showing off merely means "trying to impress rivals", then I think it's safe to say that the M's DID show off. But they showed off their originality and musicality. They showed off the effect their dancing was having on their partner. They showed off how well they navigated without touching other dancers. These were the things that impressed their rivals and observing followers with whom they wanted to dance. So showing off meant they were developing GOOD habits instead of bad ones.
  15. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Oh do we HAVE to?
  16. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    What I've heard as dynamic is just that the embrace changes, opens, closes, flexes and is not static or fixed for the entire dance. I've not heard it to mean that it varies from one specific style to another specific style.
  17. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    What? Me, a show-off? No, never happened. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
    Zoopsia59 likes this.
  18. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    do you know the hypothesis that the word tango is Welsh:
    tân = fire, coch = fire; mutates to goch and then abbreviates to go'
    so it means 'red fire'
  19. LadyLeader

    LadyLeader Active Member

    It seems I have got enough of close embrase for time being and need a change. Maybe back to nuevo ...

    Who are your favorits?
  20. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    My fave tango nuevo artists? No idea yet. Just googlng and listening. :)

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