Tango Argentino > Low vs. High boleo - leader's choice or follower's choice?

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by LoveTango, Jul 5, 2011.

  1. LoveTango

    LoveTango Member

    Yes, this is what I mean. My low is "foot stays on the floor" and my high still has knees almost together. What I saw was higher.
     
  2. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    I know of a woman who dances this way. I wouldn't think of asking her to dance, because that type of movement has no place in the way I dance.

    I will admit, she does not lack for partners.
     
  3. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    :bkick:


    I only wanted to show how much rubbish is going round, and how uncritical people are, in particular concerning argentines
     
  4. mshedgehog

    mshedgehog New Member

    I would say that the high one *can* be a totally natural movement and a surprise and not the follower's choice: and therefore I think that (if you are going to do it at all) it *should* be. The reason I believe it *can* be, is that I once kicked my own bottom with a successfully-led high boleo, and I actually cannot kick my own bottom on purpose and unaided, even if I try. The reason I believe that because it *can* be natural, it therefore *should* be (if you are going to do it at all) is that otherwise you have to switch all sorts of thinking on and off and that is very distracting and destroys the overall logic and integrity of the dance and prevents you doing other things. I don't think faking makes sense in tango, for reasons of technique and aesthetics. But you may not agree that this follows. I also generally think that nearly all the ones I see on the floor (aside from being a bad idea in other ways) are fake, because it's really not at all easy to lead high ones successfully and it is also not common for the follower to be in exactly the right place physically - in any sense.
     
  5. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    I think we could say that the boleo happens when there is a sudden change of direction in the pivot, and the centrifugal force caused by this change is greater than the gravity. This force makes the follower's foot lift. The same phenomenon happens during the boleo of a cow-boy with the "bolas" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolas).
    If the momentum impressed by the leader is not enough to cause a boleo, or if the follower is blocking her knee, the boleo will simply not happen: this is what someone calls the "low boleo".
    If the foot is raising due to the follower's energy, it is a fake boleo.
    If the follower pivots extending her leg and keeping her foot at the floor, it is a planeo.
     
  6. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Or a step :)
     
  7. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    But the follower has some control over how much of the energy transfers to the foot, by controlling the dissociation at the hip and how fast the built up torsion "unwinds" again.
     
  8. jantango

    jantango Active Member

    A downtown milonga was closed last Sunday. Some of those dancers invaded Lo de Celia Tango Club. I actually saw a voleo (at knee height) done, something I never get to see in a milonga. Wow! She almost kicked the man seated at the front row table.
     
  9. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Dont agree, the to and fro movement is lead by the man with the counter movement. The moment the woman gets into it only is the flicking at the angular point. It provides the speed.
     
  10. Joe

    Joe Well-Known Member

    The lady can always resist any movement...
     
  11. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    Of course. But he leads the to and fro of the top of the follower. How the bottom half reacts depends on how the follower dissociates above the waist. At least I don't actually physically grab the follower below the waist ;).
     
  12. pwpulto

    pwpulto Member

    Joe is right, ultimately the lady is always mistress of her own movements!
     
  13. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Unskilled leaders frequently give far more force than necessary when leading boleos, and resisting can cause pain and counterproductive tension in the follower's muscles. I can't tell you how many times I've been led in boleos (including high inline back boleos) that should have been kept low due to space, but it required considerable effort form me to keep my foot down resulting in painful joints and muscles.
     
  14. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    No. Not always, as I pointed out above... If she were always the mistress of her movements, then it wouldn't be possible for bad leaders to hurt followers by overly forceful movements.
     
  15. pwpulto

    pwpulto Member

    Where I disagree with Joe is in the word "resist". You don't have to resist but just give in to the excessive force, making it disappear in your body. At the open side of the abrazo it is pretty easy to give in, by just releasing the elbow...
     
  16. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I agree on this concept, but I believe it is far more instinctive to create tension to resist movement that seem injurious than to totally relax to absorb it. That's one of the reasons why drunk people often don't get hurt as much slipping and falling on a ice sidewalk as sober people do. They aren't as tense when they hit the ground. (I remember an EMT friend breaking something when he fell on the ice and his exact words were: "I wasn't drunk enough the way I usually am walking home from that bar")

    Martial artists and skaters are trained to avoid that kind of automatic tension response, but if you watch the average person at a rink, they go through some pretty wild gyrations to avoid falling and usually fall anyway resulting in far more pain than the experienced skaters who have gotten used to falling and roll through it

    The average social tango follower does not have that sort of training in her background, so it is something that must be learned from tango. I've been tangoing for some time now (and skated before that) and I still automatically tense to resist a good bit of the time it comes up. Allowing the "frame" (for lack of a better word) that usually allows you to follow to go all "spaggetti arms noodly" is totally counter-intuitive except for people whose arms are too wishy-washy to follow properly in the first place.

    And you still can't just relax your arms, because you might find it pushed back behind your shoulder. The whole upper body has to sorta "go limp"

    I found the only consistent way I can deal with the issue is to not dance with certain people.
     
  17. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    I use this method all the time, as a leader. Well, I only use it when I have a partner that thinks my lead comes from my L arm. I think in apilado the whole connection is found in the chest, with the arms doing very little work at all. If I have a partner who wants to push on my L arm, I just let it fly away.
     
  18. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    So, a question on boleos...

    As I understand it, for the "straight-legged" linear versions, the movement is from the hip, yes?

    Whereas for the "whip" linear or ocho-based boleos, the free leg movement is more below the knee, with the thighs mainly close together?

    Does that sound reasonable?
     
  19. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    No: ;)

    if a circular boleo starts with say a sacada; the foot can start moving in an arc over the floor;
    the knee joint wont allow for this; as it is a hinge joint ; the hip is a ball and socket joint and this facilitates circular movement.
    (Yes I know I'm stating the bleedin' obvious)
    eventually the thighs come together; then the knee can take the remaining energy and flick - if the follower allows.
     
  20. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Err... yes... obvious... :doh: :oops:

    I guess what I'm asking is whether there's a qualitative difference between straight-leg boleos and the "flick" ones, or whether it's quantitative?

    That is, ignoring any rotation, are they both the same movement but with different levels of energy?
     

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