Swing Discussion Boards > Magic Pill

Discussion in 'Swing Discussion Boards' started by Black Sheep, Jun 22, 2003.

  1. uncle joe

    uncle joe New Member

    Frankie Manning first heard the words Eight count from the Stevens Sisters in Pasadena. Up until that time after the 1980's Frankie admitted that he never heard of Eight count.

    The first time that Six Count Lindy was introduced in LA, or any other place that I know of, was in Dance Forum in 2003 under the title 'Magic Pill' by Black Sheep. Check the archives.

    My book Lindy By Lanza, originally documented a unique "Teaching Method' which for the first time introduced 'Six Count Lindy' in March 2002. Before 2002 the term 'TRIPLE TRIPLE Rock Step' was used in teaching WCS.

    Incidentally, try telling an ECS dancer that there's no difference between ECS or WCS. LOL.
    ECS is the closest style to the Lindy Hop.

    Uncle Joe aka Black Sheep aka Joe Lanza
    The teacher's best friend
  2. DWise1

    DWise1 Well-Known Member

    Granted. Theory comes later as we try to explain how something works. From what I've been taught, they communicated rhythms by speaking them in a form of scat. Counts came later.

    That I'll do. In order to figure out what your terminology is supposed to mean.

    BTW, I started Lindy in August 2002, which BTW predates 2003. That included both eight-count and six-count moves. And that instructor had been teaching those moves for nearly a decade ... again predating 2003.

    Unless is your "Six Count Lindy" is something entirely different. In which case, why give it a confusing name?

    Similarly, I started WCS in 2001, which BTW also predates 2002. From a long-established teacher who had been teaching for over 20 years, which also rather predates your 2002. "Double, triple, triple".

    Of course, it could very well be that ballroom teachers were teaching your 'TRIPLE TRIPLE Rock Step' , but then ballies tend to be off in their own special world anyway. Like their big concern with WCS is whether it's with a toe-lead or a heel-lead.

    I've danced all three. If people laugh in your face when you tell them that there's no difference between ECS and WCS, then that does not surprise me in the least.

    Of course, if you have redefined the terms sufficiently to erase all differences between ECS and WCS, then what can we say? Except that the rest of the world doesn't use your own special redefinitions.

    And convention has it that ECS is ballroom's simplification of Lindy, so one would expect it to be close to Lindy.
  3. uncle joe

    uncle joe New Member

    There is one main misunderstanding that can clarify where I am coming from with the Six & Eight discussion:

    My Magic Pill is NOT a new dance , it is not WCS or ECS or Ballroom Swing, it is a Teaching Method which is documented as, "The Magic Pill" in the Dance Forum Archives and in my book "Lindy by Lanza"; it is not based on, 'who taught me what when etc.' which comes under the category of "Here-say".

    There is quite a difference in using numbers to count Swing configurations and setting up a whole teaching method for beginning Swig dancers on just one single 8 X 10 page where other Swing teaching methods often run into a book size explanation or a full hour video.

    I emphatically stated in my Magic Pill, that this is a TEACHING METHOD.
    And once you read the single page instructions you will also understand why using Eight counts and Six counts in the same lesson can be very confusing because Eight is counting steps and Six is counting rhythm which has some basic techniques built into the coded < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 > which is not possible to apply when merely counting Eight steps or Tripling counts.

    The Six Count Teaching Method will enable a wall flower to learn the Lindy Hop on a private 15-20 minute lesson, strictly following the instructions step by step to the level where the student can step out on the dance floor immediately after the lesson and lead or follow any fair to middling WCS or ECS Dancer.

    I tested this Magic Pill method for over a year, at different Swing venues three and four times a week, in 2001 before I documented the Magic Pill in my book, "Lindy by Lanza" which most of the teachers in LA, England, Germany and Italy have copies of starting with Hillary Alexander of Camp Hollywood.

    And as for WCS borrowing steps from ECS; steps DO NOT identify a dance; many dances have the same steps like Mambo and Salsa, Fox Trot and Waltz, Rumba and Bollero, WCS and ECS.

    Steps are only configurations that are infinite, it is the RHYTHM, TECHNIQUES and STYLING that identify a dance and gives the performer a different unique euphoric experience.

    Just imagine the Sensual Romantic feeling when dancing a Tango compared with the Rhythmic throbbing of a Bossa Nova, and you will clearly see that STEPS are not unique to any dance, and that is only one of the weakness of the Eight Step count WCS compared to my SIX note rhythmic Teaching method which is about techniques and syncopated rhythm and smooth transitions all included in the coded < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 > in a 15-20 minute lesson.

    Check the Dance Forum's archives before you respond and you'll realize we were talking about different subjects.
    Whether or not you agree with my Six count Lindy teaching method or not, there it is, documented for posterity in hundreds of books copyrighted on March, 2002. And not just on 'Here-say".

    Uncle Joe aka Black Sheep
    The dancer's best friend
    All rights reserved @ 2009 by joe lanza
  4. DWise1

    DWise1 Well-Known Member

    If you were only talking about some teaching method, then why didn't you say so from the start?

    Though that still doesn't excuse your crazy claims, such as Camp Hollywood being where they teach West Coast Swing, whereas instead they teach Lindy and other dances of that era (eg, Charleston, Balboa, Shag) along with jazz dances (eg, Shim Sham, Big Apple, Trankydoo). Westie-landia it is not.

    Or that "there's no difference between ECS or WCS". Sorry, but anyone who has danced both knows that there's a lot of difference betwee ECS and WCS. Even if your method exploits commonalities to remove most differences for the beginner, they are still two different dances.

    Or that "Before 2002 the term 'TRIPLE TRIPLE Rock Step' was used in teaching WCS." I very clearly pointed out that for at least 25 years before 2002, that was not the case. OK, I allowed that maybe ballroom syllabi had that, but we must remember that ballies are off in their own world -- there's another recent thread in this section which briefly touched upon this. Sorry, but your claim is just plain bogus.

    Which brings up how you just misrepresented what I had written:
    I was clearly demonstrating that not only was I receiving pre-2002 instruction in both WCS and Lindy that was very clearly counter to your bogus claim, but they had been teaching it that way for upwards of 25 years! I wasn't playing any hear-say games nor name-dropping, but rather I was clearly demonstrating that your claim is just plain bogus. If you want to respond to that, then respond to it, but do not misrepresent what I wrote -- I have been subjected to such treatment from creationists for decades, so I have extremely little patience with such dishonest tactics.

    That was not at all the question, nor what I was disagreeing with. I was disagreeing with your blatantly bogus claim:
    To repeat myself, in 2001 I was very clearly taught WCS with "Double, Triple, Triple", never ever no stinkin' 'TRIPLE TRIPLE Rock Step'. And that teacher had been teaching it for 25 years. And "Double, Triple, Triple" has been used universally among all WCS teachers I've encountered since then and, again, most of them had been teaching since the 80's or even the 70's. And all WCS dancers I have encountered had all been taught "double, triple, triple" and most of them had learned long before your 2002, before which you claim that they had been learning 'TRIPLE TRIPLE Rock Step'.

    Now, if you honestly and truly believe that until 2002 WCS had been taught with 'TRIPLE TRIPLE Rock Step', then you should identify where and when such a practice existed. And you should be able to recall such specific cases immediately, if your claim was based on actual knowledge.

    Now this new one just bent my mind (my emphasis):
    Uh, we're counting the beats, not the steps. We have six-count moves and eight-count moves and 10- or 12-count moves because that's how many beats there are in the music -- they have different numbers of counts because some take longer to execute than others.

    We never count the individual number of steps, but rather that's what the "&"'s are for:
    6-count: <1-2 3&4 5&6> performed with eight steps, not just six.
    8-count: <1-2 3&4 5-6 7&8> performed with ten steps, not just eight.
    That's basic.

    And I simply do not understand your repeated reference to "the coded < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 >". Is that just simply a part of your method?
  5. uncle joe

    uncle joe New Member

    You are accusing me of making many statements about teaching at Camp Hollywood that I never said nor even implied in any way.

    I believe my explanation that the Magic PILL is a Teaching Method, negates all your statements as irrelevant since you were making statements that had no connection with my teaching method.

    It might help you to realize that your trying to explain the teaching curriculum at Camp Hollywood was unnecessary, since I attended every Camp Hollywood Event from 1997 until 2007 when only my disability prevented me from continuing, and my professional teaching ballroom dancing started in 1949 at the Veloz & Yolanda Dance Studios in LA. a some 50 years before your introduction to ballroom dancing in 2001. Although experience and duration are not my way of equating knowledge.

    Uncle Joe
    Magic Pill is my contribution to dancers
  6. DWise1

    DWise1 Well-Known Member

    With all due respect (which can be read in the Woody Allen sense of you wish), if you make false statements then it does not matter one bit how many years you've been teaching what. Except that you should have known better than to have made false statements.

    And, no, I wasn't talking about your teaching method, but rather about the false statements that you were making in this thread.

    You started the thread with this (my emphasis):
    That is exactly what you wrote (except for my added emphasis); I copy-and-pasted it directly from the opening post. So are you going to stand there (or sit, since you're at your computer) and try to claim that you did not say anything about West Coast Swing being taught at the Lindy event Camp Hollywood?

    Since you stated that WCS was taught at Camp Hollywood, despite all the times that you say you have attended, you obviously needed to be informed of what is taught there. Again, with your purported vast knowledge and experience, you should have known better than to have made such a statement.

    And also please note that at no point in your opening post did you ever indicate that you were only talking about your teaching method. So that renders your show of indignation and your cavalier dismissals moot.

    I am still waiting for you to support your blatantly bogus claim:
    But just as with similar requests for supporting evidence from creationists for their blatantly bogus claims, I'm sure I'll never see yours.
  7. kayak

    kayak Active Member


    What happens after the first 15 minutes? Every dance teacher has a general plan for getting total non-dancers up and going. So yours seems fine even if I would define 6 and 8 counts more like Dwise. My question is where does the Magic Pill take a dancer beyond a starter step?

    The reason I ask is I can not imagine very many people going to a dance weekend or even reading Dance Forums that have absolutely no idea how to dance at least a little? Most come to these things with a real passion for dancing and a range of abilities from doing pretty well to totally awesome. So it seems like almost any instruction would be focused well past the first 15 minutes?
  8. uncle joe

    uncle joe New Member

    Kayak, After the first 15 minute dance instruction, hopefully the new student will continue Swing dancing and start taking more progressive lessons with other teachers; I never teach the same student a second time nor do I solicit Them.

    My experience has been that some percentage of students take one or two class or private lessons, get discouraged because they can't 'Get it' and never return. Hopefully my Magic Pill teaching Method gives them the quick start to encourage them to continue their dancing.

    I never charged or made any money on my Magic Pill. I've made it available for free on Dance Forum, in flyers distributed at the Swing Venues, at Camp Hollywood and on my Website. It works and that's my payback.

    When I was first experimenting with my Magic Pill teaching Method, I would hunt out the wall flowers, and offer to teach them right the and there. We all have friends and relatives who don't know how to dance but would love to learn how.

    Incidentally this thread was started as a survey to see what percentage of teachers are teaching WCS or ECS or Mixing the Six or with the Eight counts at Camp Hollywood this weekend?

    Uncle Joe
    A dancer's best friend
  9. DWise1

    DWise1 Well-Known Member

    [head in hand, slowly shaking head in disbelief]

    First, if you wanted to know whether anybody there will be using your teaching method, then why did you not just simply ask?

    Second, -- hellooooooo!!!! -- it's a LINDY event! Not a WCS event, nor an event that includes West Coast Swing, but a LINDY event. Duuuh???

    Go to the Camp Hollywood site and read the schedule. Many Lindy classes, plus Charleston, Balboa, Shag (Collegiate, not Carolina), Shim Sham, and the Big Apple. There's even a class in Texas Tommy and another in partnered Black Bottom. But, uh, absolutely no sign of any West Coast Swing.

    So what's with your fixation about West Coast Swing at Camp Hollywood?

    OBTW, today:
    Though I'm sure that they're talking normal 6-count and 8-count moves instead of your bizaare redefinition.
  10. Flat Shoes

    Flat Shoes New Member

    Language can sometimes be ambiguous and confusing. Steps can mean a single step, or it can mean a pattern that includes several steps. Counting can count each step, or it can count the beats.

    When you write "eight is counting steps", I understand that as meaning counting each of the eight steps taken during six beats. But I think that most of us today is thinking about eight beats when counting to eight. So eight for us is not "counting steps", but counting beats. When counting to eight, we're not counting 1-2-3 4-5-6 7-8 (or 1-2 3-4-5 6-7-8 ) in six beats, but rather 1-2 3-&4 5-6 7-&8, in eight beats.

    Both Lindy Hop and WCS have 6-count and 8-count patterns, as well as 4-count, 10-count and more. As we all agree on, counting is just a tool and not something that defines our dances. At least not when it comes to swing dancing.

    The dances do have a basic rhythm, which is eight-count (eight beats) for both Lindy and WCS, and 6-count for ECS. In Lindy (I speak about Lindy, because that is the dance I know best) the basic rhythm is quick-quick slow quick-quick slow (each quick is one beat, each slow is two beats). The basic step pattern in Lindy to the basic beat is a triple-timed step going walk-walk triple walk-walk triple. But we're NOT limited to these steps during dancing. It's a basic rhythm and pattern, nothing more than that.

    Putting this together in eight counts for Lindy:
    walk-walk triple walk-walk triple
    quick-quick slow quick-quick slow
    1-2 3&4 5-6 7&8

    It would be useful to have a table here, but each space (here an in the rest of my post) separates each "group" of two beats.

    As for teaching Lindy Hop today, I don't think you will ever find anyone counting each actual step, like 1-2 3-4-5 6-7 8-9-10 (for eight beats) or 1-2 3-4-5 6-7-8 (for six beats). You'll find the variations given in the table above, or just scatting or clapping.

    I thought I spotted a misunderstanding, so maybe I've been able to clear things up, or maybe I've misunderstood myself.
  11. uncle joe

    uncle joe New Member

    Dancing with strangers

    In 1972 I was at a public dance in Rome, Italy when Bossa Nova music came on. The Lady I had been dancing with, a stranger before that night, asked me if I knew how to dance the Bossa Nova, and I lied and said, 'No". She immediately began to teach me the Bossa Nova right there on the spot. To my pleasant surprise the young lady taught me the exact step patterns with the rhythm and body styling that I described in my original book, "Bossa Nova" in 1961.

    The point of this story is that a ballroom dance should have universal application where any two good ballroom dancers on the planet earth can dance that dance together in unison even for the first time. The first time I danced the Tango with Beverly Mayo of Swing fame, who had learned the Tango in the Philippines, we danced a flawless Tango with only my body leads.

    For any ballroom dance to have universal application, it must be leadable with only body leads and not dependent on special verbal instructions from the Leader. This is why I decided that there was a need to develop a teaching method for Swing/Lindy that would give the dance a consistency in basics to give it a universal flexibility. And that is why I ended up developing the Magic Pill, a Teaching Method for Swing/Lindy to bring a basic consistency of the fundamentals of the dance into a coded number system based on Quarter Notes and Eighth Notes to give Lindy/Swing the Universal Consistency it needed.

    A new student to Swing/Lindy is more apt to get hooked on the dance if they can see their progress on the first lesson; the Magic Pill is designed to give the new student the thrill of dancing Swing/Lindy within 15-20 minutes of a private lesson which incorporates the essential rhythm with accents, foot patterns, lead and follow cues, all included in a coded system of < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 >.

    On < 1 >, start on any down beat moving FWD;
    On < I & 2 > give leads and do three traveling steps;
    On < 3 & 4 > do three step variations in place;
    On < & 2, & 4, -6 > accent with subtle body move (syncopation);
    On < & 2, & 4 > take Eighth Note duration steps, < Quick, Quick, Quick, Quick >;
    On < 1, 3, 5, 6 > take Quarter Note duration steps, < Slow, S, S, S >
    On < 5-6 > Lady Rocks Back, Man Rocks in the direction he leads the Lady.

    Consistency does NOT mean conformancy. There is infinite room for using creative moves and styling beyond the guide lines in the Magic Pill.

    If you can't lead or follow good Swing/Lindy dancers from Tibet or South Pasadena what good is your passport ?

    Uncle Joe
    Dancer's best Friend
    All rights reserved @ 2009 by Joe Lanza
  12. uncle joe

    uncle joe New Member

    Flat Shoes, I agree on all your Points except the Counting of the Triples as <Q Q Slow >,
    The Music Accents the First beat of the Bar, and a dancer can express the first Quarter beat as two Quicks and that is what is popular among WCS dancers and Post 1980 Swing dancers.

    Swing/Lindy can be danced on beat or danced in syncopation with the music. By accenting the Up beats < &2, &4, -6 > the dancer is in syncopation with the music which for me is a more exciting rhythm.

    Salsa dancers do the same thing, they accent the Down beat whereas Mambo, the origin of Salsa accents the upbeats.

    It may sound like nit picking but I have done all four types rhythms of Swing and Mambo/Salsa, the only way you can appreciate the difference between accenting on the Down beat or Syncopating is by dancing in syncopation and you will never go back to the DOWN beat dancing, and your partner will never know the difference.

    I ask you to check out the Magic Pill in the Dance Forum Archives, and then critique it.
    It is he first time in Swing History that this "Teaching Method' and syncopation rhythm was documented and it's in the DF archives and in my book, 'Lindy By Lanza" published in March, 2002.
    Uncle Joe
    Dancer's best Friend
  13. uncle joe

    uncle joe New Member

    Flat Shoes, Yes WCS does incorporate Eight count step moves (8 Quarter Noted), however thes are Big Apple Steps like the Suzy Q, Shorty George, Trucken etc.. but these are moves that came into being after WW II, and were eventually incorporated into the Lindy.

    As for counting Eifght beats for the Basic rhythm again I agree since you are counting the 4 Quarter Slows and the 4 Eighth Quicks (Eighth notes)

    There is one area which I dagree with and with some excellent nouveau (Post 1980) Swing/Lindy Teachers, and that is when counting the Triples? From you post, I understand that you count the Triples as< Q Q Slow, QQ Slow?

    I count the Triples as < Slow QQ, Slow QQ > and here is my reason for doing so:

    The Down beat in a bar of music starts with the accent on the first Quarter Note\, and a dancer can split that Quarter Note into to Eighths (Q Q) so I understand your reason for a < Q Q Slow > for your Triple which most Post 1980 Swing/Lindy Teachers agree with you. However, when you do Q Q
  14. uncle joe

    uncle joe New Member

    Flat Shoes, I agree on all your Points except the Counting of the Triples as <Q Q Slow >,
    The Music Accents the First beat of the Bar, and a dancer can express the first Quarter beat as two Quicks and that is what is popular among WCS dancers and Post 1980 Swing dancers.

    Swing/Lindy can be danced on beat or danced in syncopation with the music. By accenting the Up beats < &2, &4, -6 > the dancer is in syncopation with the music which for me is a more exciting rhythm.

    Salsa dancers do the same thing, they accent the Down beat whereas Mambo, the origin of Salsa accents the upbeats.

    It may sound like nit picking but I have done all four types rhythms of Swing and Mambo/Salsa, the only way you can appreciate the difference between accenting on the Down beat or Syncopating is by dancing in syncopation and you will never go back to the DOWN beat dancing, and your partner will never know the difference.

    I ask you to check out the Magic Pill in the Dance Forum Archives, and then critique it.
    It is he first time in Swing History that this "teaching Method' and syncopation rhythm was documented and it's in the DF archives and in my book, 'Lindy By Lanza" published in March, 2002.
    Uncle Joe
    Dancer's best Friend
  15. Flat Shoes

    Flat Shoes New Member

    The triple is only during the slow. During quick-quick we have (in the basics) step-step, and during slow, there is room for the triple step.

    Each quick and slow is really a quick or slow weight change. A triple is really a single weight change (in triple timing). The triple can be replaced by a single step (single timing) or a tap-step (double timing).

    Which means during a quick-quick slow we can have walk-walk step, walk-walk tap-step or walk-walk triple-step. (single time, double time and triple time basic)
  16. Apache

    Apache Member

    Well to answer the original question of this thread, I just came back from Camp Hollywood this past weekend. (Thank you Hilary Alexander for that excellent event).

    It was a mostly Lindy weekend with a few classes in Balboa and Collegiate Shag. There was nothing involving West Coast Swing. (As far as I know). Plus with Jonathan Stout and Dean Mora wailing at the speeds they were the night dances were not exactly Westie friendly either.
  17. uncle joe

    uncle joe New Member

    Thank you Apache, The tide is finally beginning to turn from the WCS to the Lindy. Congratulations Hilary for hiring Lindy dance Teachers.

    For those of you who weren't around LA these past few years before say 2004, WCS was the predominant style of the Swing thing. Since 2002, starting with my book, "Lindy By Lanza" and my posts, "WCS Sucks", I have been on a Lone Crusade to rid the dance world of that abominable, boring WCS Chain Studio Swing.

    I saw a gradual re-awaking since 2002 that the Lindy Hop was beginning to be accepted as the original more sophisticated dancer's dance, but I thought I'd never live long enough to see LA convert to the true version of the Savoy Lindy so soon.

    Now hopefully, I can be forgiven for critiquing the WCS so vehemently all these year by my dance friends.
  18. uncle joe

    uncle joe New Member

    Flat Shoes,
    All the years I have been teaching dancing, A <quick> has always been translated as a Eighth Note in music, and a <Slow> has always meant a Quarter Note in music. And in musical terms, a <Triple> is three beats evenly divided between two Quarter notes; creating a problem of where to accent; 1, 2, or 3 ?

    Your explanation of Single, Double and Triple Swing is very clear and of course I agree with you there also; it is just where to accent the beat in the musc, and in Syncopated rhythm the accents are on the UP beats, the even numbered notes in a 4/4 bar of music; that is the musical definition of Syncopation.

    But there is no rule you have to dance in Syncopated rhythm to the music. WCS and Salsa dancer's accent the DOWN beat and so do dancers in many other ballroom dances.

    But once you try dancing in Syncopated rhythms you'll get hooked.
    Uncle Joe
    The dancer's best friend
  19. DWise1

    DWise1 Well-Known Member

    Let me put this in dancer-friendly terms. You basically have the right idea, but terminology is getting in the way.

    In common usage, "quick" and "slow" both normally refer to a single step being taken. A quick is a step being taken in a single beat and a slow is a single step being taken over two beats. Therefore, for example, Country 2 Step is "quick quick slow slow", or in counts: 1-2-3-5. Counting with quicks and slows works well with a number of dances, especially ballroom dances. I've even heard it used with salsa, since the 4 and 8 counts are held, such that it becomes "quick-quick-slow, quick-quick-slow".

    But I have never heard any swing dance rhythms ever counted with quicks and slows. Because it just does not apply. A triple is not a "slow", it is a triple. A triple is three steps, not just one. Yes, you can substitute a triple with a single, but that is a syncopation, not part of the basic rhythm.

    Instead, I'll briefly describe Skippy Blair's "rhythm unit" system, which I've heard several WCS teachers use. A "rhythm unit" is a pair of beats, the downbeat followed by the upbeat (or "back beat"), AKA "1 2". During each rhythm unit, you can take any number of steps (within reason, of course0. But no matter how many steps you take, it will either be an even or an odd number of steps. Therefore, we can speak of even rhythm units and odd rhythm units. Therefore, your "quick-quick" is an even rhythm unit and the triple is actually an odd rhythm unit.

    So a 6-count step is normally double-triple-triple, which is even-odd-odd. And an 8-count is even-odd-even-odd. Note that odd rhythms need to be paired up, though not necessarily next to each other, in order for you to end up on the correct foot for the next move. Though if you end up on the wrong foot, then you simply change the next move's intial double into an odd rhythm to correct it -- eg, the "hitch step" which is effectively a kick-ball-change.

    A handy thing about thinking in even and odd rhythms is that it helps you in working with syncopations as well as in describing the rhythm of a move.

    BTW, where Uncle Joe says
    he's talking about "The Swing". That's the quality in swing music that "makes it swing" and that's what Lindy was danced to. West Coast Swing has since evolved and adapted to dancing to music that doesn't swing, so WCS is sometimes described as "swing dancing without the swing".

    Dancing a triple without swing would be dividing the two beats evenly into thirds. To start dancing it with swing, prolong the first step for the duration of the first beat and then the remaining two within the second beat, almost with a ball-change feeling. Or to sing it out:
    Without the swing: tri-ple-step
    with the swing: triiii, ple-step

    uncle joe inadvertantly raised a good point for us to remember. Dancers and musicians use a lot of the same terms and those terms mean close to the same thing, but there are differences and we tend to use those same terms in slightly different ways. It's easy for confusion to creep in. We need to be clear in our minds what we mean by those terms and to understand what others mean by those terms.
  20. kayak

    kayak Active Member

    Now all UJ just has to do is convince modern musicians to reverse their trend on emphasizing the Down beat and his mission to replace WCS with Lindy as danced to modern music will be well underway :cool:

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