Swing Discussion Boards > Magic Pill

Discussion in 'Swing Discussion Boards' started by Black Sheep, Jun 22, 2003.

  1. Dancelf

    Dancelf Member

    Right idea, but you are typing too quickly: that hitch step is an even rhythm unit (kick (0) + ball-change(2)).

    No. Dancing a triple without swing would be dividing the two beats evenly into quarters (ie, splitting each beat in half), and stepping on three of them - "beat and beat". Your first weight change falls on the odd count, the last weight change falls on the even count, the middle step/press occurs centered between the two in time. This is the timing that we use when trying to match music that is played in "straight eighths".

    To swing the triple, the middle is delayed (closer to the last step than the first), but the two full weight changes still fall on the beats.
  2. DWise1

    DWise1 Well-Known Member

    &1 &2 is how we syncopate it when we start with the right foot (which is to say "the wrong foot") free:
    & -- step onto the right foot
    1 -- kick or point the left foot forward
    &2 -- ball-change, having moved forward onto the rail, ending up where we would have been had it been a standard 1-2.

    Which isn't to say that's the only way to do a hitch-kick, but rather that that is what I was referring to.

    As for the rest of your reply, I agree with you.
  3. uncle joe

    uncle joe New Member

    May I suggest a music dictionary's definition of a Triple:


    In Swing/Lindy dancing, the controversy has been 'How to divide AND accent these three Beats of the Triple?

    My explanation has always been since 1953, (although we never used the term 'Triple') is to divide the Triple's two Quarter Notes, into One Slow Step (One Quarter Note) and Two Quick Steps (2 Eighth Notes) e.g. < Slow Quick Quick > (See Magic Pill in DF archives)

    And start on any of the music's Down beats with One Slow Step (First Quarter Beat) and followed with Two Quick Quick Steps accented in syncopation with the 4/4 time music.

    There is no rule for dancer's; they can interpret music the way they feel it; I just defined what Syncopation is according to music dictionaries, i.e. "Syncopation is accenting the unaccented beats in a bar of music".

    I prefer a Triple that is divided into One Single Quarter beat followed by Two Eighth Beats = Slow Quick Quick > with the accents on the Quick Quicks, the even numbered Quarter notes of a bar.

    The Rock step takes Two Slows (Two Quarter Notes) < Slow Slow >.

    Uncle Joe
    The dancer's best friend
  4. bjp22tango

    bjp22tango Active Member

    I dance Single time, Double time, and Triple time depending on the type of music being played and how the rhythm is emphasised.

    To "Swing" music of the 30's & 40's I tend to syncoplate 3/4 1/4 1 on the triple steps because that is what the music asks for.

    For the simplified Rock & Roll and Country swing music I tend to do as Uncle Joe does and make is 1/2 1/2 1 or quick quick slow or even reduce it to a tap step or simply a step if the music is fast enough.

    It just depends on the music.
  5. Alias

    Alias Member

    I think that writing "triple" instead of "triple-step" is too much of an abbreviation and may lead to some misunderstanding (idem for "double" of course), even in a dance discussion we don't talk only about steps as there are other issues like timing and music, and other dance-related actions (what about a triple-kick, a triple-wink ;) ;) ;) …).
  6. Flat Shoes

    Flat Shoes New Member

    I've learned this the informal way, so that might be very possible.

    You will find it on the net, but I see the problem you're pointing out when it comes to Lindy. But check out some (collegiate) shag descriptions, and you will find the slow-slow-quick-quick rhythm mentioned many places.

    OK, seems I was wrong here. :)

    I disagree. I will say that quick-quick slow (step-step on beat 1 and 2, and step and hold on beat 3 and 4) is the basic rhythm. Then the the last single step can be substituted with a tap-step or a triple (or something else). But I understand that it is wrong (and causes confusion) to still use quick-quick slow, when the last step is replaced by a triple.

    The main point of the triple is to add easy traveling. When I dance, and do not have to travel on the triple, I am often lazy and just use a single step instead.

    I've heard too many instructors going tri-ple-step with an even unsyncopated rhythm. And being a local instructor myself I know how easy it is to do just this when not thinking about it.

  7. Flat Shoes

    Flat Shoes New Member

    When it comes to what swings and not, I am not sure. I of course agree that the triple-step should be syncopate. And not doing it would be weird.

    But there is more to it than that. I know I can swing when dancing single time too. And I know I can't swing if the music doesn't swing.

    Describing what's happening is not easy, but the way I think about it is that good swing comes from the body and the bounce connecting with the rhythm in the music. Just syncopating the footwork is not quite enough.

    This is one thing I sometimes mention when teaching locally; don't dance like metronomes.
  8. uncle joe

    uncle joe New Member

    You suggested that I do Quick Quick Slow on threes; actually I do <Slow Quick Quick >
    And here is my main reason for doing so:
    In any bar (measure) of music, the First note is the most accented regardless of the dance. If I started my three steps with Quick Quick Slow, how would I be able to syncopate and accent on the second Quarter note?

    I try both rhythms with my hands and feet, but I can't in a zone with the Quick Quick Slow. It may be because I have danced Slow Quick Quick for over 50 years?

    My Six count Lindy rhythm is < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5 - 6 > which seems to be the count being used on the Dance Forums and at he last dance venues I attended.
    ??If dance partners re using different accents with different rhythms it could cause a sense of not being together. Although Lindy is pretty much a free form dance, there needs to be a consistency in the rhythm if not in the subtle body accents. Consistency in rhythm is not conformity in dancing.
  9. uncle joe

    uncle joe New Member

    The ECS is the Lindy Hop and here are the techniques for this version of Swing taken from My Magic Pill by Black Sheep. (See DF archives for complete description of Lindy.)
    "Slow, Quick, Quick Slow, Quick, Quick, Slow, Slow

    LADY, ON THE 1... &2 ALWAYS travels or turns only on these 3 steps;
    LADY ON THE 3... &4 ALWAYS takes 3 steps in-place;
    LADY ON THE 5 -- 6 ALWAYS Rocks Back, takes 2 steps.

    MAN ON THE 1... &2 - 3... &4 takes 6 steps in-place, rotating with thedirection of his leads;
    MAN ON THE 5-- 6 ALWAYS Rocks in the direction of his leads;
    MAN ON THE 1... &2 ALWAYS gives his leads.
    The WCS is obsolete, a waste of time learning: basically the Lady walks into her partner on the Rock Step instead Rocking Back. WCS was danced by Chain Dance Studios in Southern California from the 1940's until last year when it finally was substituted by the Lindy.

    Jazz, is another name for Swing dancing that is rarely used. Free form interpretive dancing is what dancers call Jazz.

    Uncle Joe The Dancers Best Friend
  10. uncle joe

    uncle joe New Member

    Laure' Hail was a long time friend of mine and we danced swing together often throughout the years, and she was one of the best all round ballroom dancers, but she was strictly an Arthur Murray WCS dancer, which lacks many of the advanced techniques of the NYC Lindy Hop.

    She was right about dividing the Triple into separate beats in order to be able to dance in syncopation. However, instead of QUICK QUICK SLOW I recommend <Slow Quick Quick > Nit-picking? Try both and see what feels more rhythmically euphoric.

    My Six Count Lindy Teaching Method is a result of dancing and teaching NYC Lindy Hop since 1953.

    Uncle Joe
    The Teacher's Best Friend
  11. uncle joe

    uncle joe New Member

    Lanza six count lindy

    In my book, "Lindy by Lanza", please note the date of publication April 20, 2001 when I first described the, "Lanza Six Count Lindy", a teaching method. It took almost a decade before my friends in L.A. finally abandoned the WCS which was based on the WW II film, "Buck Private" which was revived in 1980. And for almost thirty years Southern Californians were dancing a poor substitute of the NYC Lindy Hop, under the impression this was the Real Deal.

    Ironically, in this past month's Camp Hollywood four day festival, Hilary Alexander advertised in her previews that the WCS style would be taught, and friends who attended Camp Hollywood this past month informed me that the WCS was suddenly obsolete and every one at the CH dance was doing the Six Count Lindy that I had preached and formulated a teaching method for that converted WCS dancers to the Lindy hop in my Magic Pill which first appeared on Dance Forum in 2002, and in my book, "Lindy By Lanza" and in countless flyers delivered at the annual Camp Hollywood events, and at weekly Swing venues for the past nine years here in Southern California.

    But Unfortunately, "The Lanza SIX Count Lindy" teaching method is being taught by A FEW incompetent teachers who add so many of their hubris modifications that the effectiveness of the original paradigm is lost in the confusion by their mixing Triples with Six Counts and starting with Rock Steps instead of FWD on the < 1 & 2 > and thereby changing the functions of the counts < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 > thereby crippling the effectiveness of the original formula with coded numbers including their four specific crucial Lindy Hop techniques: Rock Back for Resistance, syncopated rhythm, placement of Leads, and When to Travel.

    This is my, "Lanza Six Count Lindy Teaching Method", if anyone can do better, show me !
    (The Six Count Teaching Method is in he DF archives under "Magic Pill".

    Uncle Joe
    The Dancer's Best Friend
  12. DWise1

    DWise1 Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry, but I must not have heard that correctly. You see, you just set off my BS detector and it's going crazy.

    Of course, I must request^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hdemand that you point us to those previews. So we can see it for ourselves. Nothing personal, but you've been trying to shovel so much BS on us that we just cannot take your word for anything.

    Oh man! You just pegged my BS detector's needle!

    Just straight 6-count? No swingouts? No 8-count circles? You're trying to tell us that all those Lindy hoppers just abandoned Lindy in favor of boring old ECS???
  13. RickRS

    RickRS Member

    Uncle Joe,

    Why dump on WCS? Your tone toward WCS, when you have commented, has been very negative:

    And now your last post is all gleeful that there wasn't any WCS at a Lindy comp.
    Of course it didn't feature WCS, it was a Lindy comp!

    Why not be nice; promote your favorite, Lindy, without knocking a style others are enjoying?
  14. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    one does not have to respect anyone elses' ideas around here but we need to be respectful in how we disagree...I hope I will not have to elaborate or get specific with folks...thanks all for your cooperation
  15. uncle joe

    uncle joe New Member

    My criticism of the WCS was no a criticism of the dancers or instructors, but since WCS dancers were obviously offended, I sincerely apologize to them.

    I know several old time WCS Swing dancers who eventually converted, I was one of them. It is true that converts usually end up being fanatical about their new religion, that is not my excuse, it is a personality aberration and just an explanation of my seeming insensitivity to others feelings.

    I hope and believe that in the near future my vitriolic comments about the WCS will be forgotten along with the WCS. I might add that I have already paid dearly for my criticism of the WCS; A majority of my acquaintances who are advocates of WCS have given me the cold should these past nine years.
    That is the price you pay for rudely expressing opinions that are contrary to the majority.
    Thanks for teaching me a good lesson.
    Uncle Joe
  16. DancingMommy

    DancingMommy Active Member

    Why on earth would you want the demise of a legitimate form of dance? That's so... Elitist. And snobbish. Perhaps the fact that people have been giving you the cold shoulder for almost a decade is a wakeup call.

    For the record, many people enjoy WCS just fine and have no interest in Lindy Hop. How arrogant would it be for a ballroom dancer to say "Oh I hope Lindy Hop dies a slow lingering death"?

    Dancing is - and SHOULD - be about enjoying one's self on the dance floor. All the sturm and drang of "I hope it DIIIIIIIIEEEEEEES" is a load of bullhockey. Dance what *you* want to dance. Don't begrudge other's their happy place.

    There's nothing in this world that gets me in a state of [can't put the words on this forum] than egotisitical dancers of any stripe who get bent because other people are enjoying themselves doing [insert dance] that the EDs don't "approve of".

    William Shatner said it best in his SNL sketch.
  17. DWise1

    DWise1 Well-Known Member

    "Sulu! Is that you?"

    Oh! The other SNL sketch! [grin]

    Joe, other forums tend to attract a rather disgusting lower life form called the troll. It seems that the only purpose in life that a troll has is to subvert normal forum discourse and to generate flame wars. They do this by posting outrageous messages that contain outlandish lies which are calculated to generate angry responses. The conventional wisdom is to not feed the trolls, though my approach tends to be to hold the troll's feet to the fire.

    Joe, when you exhibit troll-like behavior, then you should not be surprised to be treated like a troll. The solution to this is simple and entirely up to you.

    We have no problem with somebody holding an opinion that we do not share. We do not have any problem per se when contrary opinions are expressed, but how those opinions are expressed is where problems can arise. Honest and respectful discourse is most advised, especially when it allows and even encourages an exchange of ideas and views. We need to support our position with evidence, facts, and honest reasoning. It does not help our position when we present outrageously false statements and claims, basically just throwing out foolish nonsense that we make up. If that is all that we are able to present in support of our position, then that position is baseless.

    Joe, instead of using foolish nonsense to support your position, use honest reasoning. It will serve you far better.

    There are things that I don't like. For example, I abhor sports. Always have. So do I wish for and plot the demise of sports? No, I simply have nothing to do with it. Simple as that.

    There are dances that I don't like. Similarly, rather than berate those dances and wish they ceased to exist, I simply don't participate in them. At worst, I'll enjoy jokes at their expense (eg, t-shirt of a long-horn steer standing in the midst of a herd of sheep; the steer exclaims: "Oh no! I'm surrounded by line dancers!"). Doesn't bother me much when a line dance starts, because at the country venue I usually go to there's still room all along the sides of the dance floor for WCS; though at another country venue, they only leave room for a few slots.

    And it's not a matter of either WCS or Lindy. For one thing, they have their own communities that do not compete directly with each other; if WCS were to completely disappear tomorrow, that does not mean that suddenly all those people would go to Lindy. In fact, most dancers I know do not restrict themselves to just one dance community, but rather they are in multiple communities. I'm only one of several who dance both WCS and Lindy (and hustle and nightclub and country and ballroom and salsa and Argentine tango).

    No dance exists at the expense of any other of the dances. Unless bigots in one community campaign against the other communities. Most of us agree that such campaigns are totally uncalled-for and unacceptable.
  18. DancingMommy

    DancingMommy Active Member

    Errr... Actually, yes it is. ;)
  19. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    If the concept that WCS is alive and well is so important to each of you, then YOU go live it!

    Joe is very clear in his reality that WCS is worthless... then let HIM live it.
  20. DWise1

    DWise1 Well-Known Member

    Oops! Remembered it wrong. It was Khan who delivered that line when he saw an over-weight Sulu -- the Enterprise had been converted into an interstellar fast-food restaurant and Sulu had been loading up on fries ever since. Well, I had only seen that one once and it must have been over 25 years ago.

    The sketch I assumed you had meant was Shatner at a convention finally getting fed up over Trekkies' persistent questions over minutiae that he finally told them all to "get a life already!"

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