Tango Argentino > Milonguero style

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by jantango, Aug 10, 2012.

  1. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    This is just an idea I heard once, and has nothing to do with leaders passing partners in class.

    If there are two or more ladies standing out in the rotation, having no partners, they should not stand next to each other, which sometimes happens. That will ensure that they stand out twice, or more, in a row before getting a partner. They should find places in between couples.

    It seems obvious once you think about it.
     
  2. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I think it says far more about the leader/s in question than about the class. It's usually not about the class material... it's about some leaders not wanting to dance with anyone they deem "below" their own level (when in fact the follower may be at or above his level, but it shouldn't matter either way) In any class, there will be some variation of levels because the community isn't large enough to support classes that are too restricted.

    And of course, there are leaders who decide a follower isn't worthy because of her build rather than her ability.

    I'm not saying this happens frequently, but it has happened to a few followers I know.
     
  3. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    On the rare occasions I actually take a class as a follower, when it's my turn to wait out, I will simply switch to leading another un-partnered follower.

    If I was aware that I was the follower that a leader came to in his attempt to skip someone else, I would probably just say "I'm leading this rotation" and walk away from him and go to the follower he skipped, even if that meant their were no other followers available to him. (so there!)

    (As a totally off topic side note, I am always dismayed at the flak women get for leading in a class with not enough followers. Some of the guys get quite vocal about how the female leader should be doing the follower's part since they need more followers. Those same guys are the ones who will NEVER try to follow themselves if the class has extra leaders. :rolleyes: )

    Anyway... didn't mean to hijack the thread from the original topic.
     
  4. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Here, here!
     
  5. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I may have missed it in all the posts, but I'm curious (if you are willing to share) what her criticism / complaint was?
     
  6. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    In our own defense, we're not alone and we don't limit it to Spanish words. ;)

    Ever hear a sportscaster say "He LINEBACKERED him!!!"

    Or a photographer say an image has been "photoshopped"? Actually, it seems more common in the computer world than the dance world. So much so that the words and word usages are ceasing to be "wrong".

    As someone put it "English doesn't 'borrow' from other languages.. it follows other languages into dark alleys, hits them over the head, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar"

    (One of my fave quotes, and I've no idea of the origin)
     
  7. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    [​IMG]

    I'm glad you're back, too.
     
  8. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    OMG! This is great!! :uplaugh:
     
  9. Gssh

    Gssh Well-Known Member

    "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
    English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
    words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
    to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
    --James D. Nicoll

    (and original context: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!msg/rec.arts.sf-lovers/5tQFnNbvN80/1pfKcGbEYckJ)

    :)
     
  10. jantango

    jantango Active Member

    I came across an El Once Tango News interview (2002) of YVONNE MEISSNER of Germany who has been teaching apilado tango for 20 years in Europe, many of those years with Eduardo Aguirre. The following is portions of the 12-page interview.

    Q: The style of dancing you started with was presumably figure orientated, like we all did at that time. When and how did you change to the way you dance now?

    A: Through Susana Miller and Cacho Dante. They were the first that I was able to help organize and learn from extensively. i was around doing the public relations, organizing the space and printing the fliers. I considered what I learned in three years from them a gift while I organized their workshops twice a year.

    We tried to show people what Susana and Cacho were teaching and gradually I got involved more in this minimalist and introvert way of tango. It was a hard thing in 1994 to explain to people who were still in a figure and count-orientated tango using lots of space related to the basic step with a back step. We wanted to show them a very different side that started from the music, a common space, and couple as a definition. The women saved the situation: they all died to dance with Cacho. At first I wasn't hooked as much as it sounds, but this was a subtle power intruding into my life. It's my preferred way to dance.

    Q: Susana called their way of dancing "milonguero style", which is now how many people refer to it. What would you say it was called?

    A: I wouldn't really use the term "milonguero" style myself. Susana Miller used it after 1987 as an abbreviation. She had gained the confidence of the milongueros, so first Cacho Dante and then Eduardo Aguirre started to work with her in Club Almagro. She invented the term as an abbreviation for the close form of social dancing in the center of Buenos Aires. And there are three types of holds, two are close, (thus apilado) and one is open. The open one was danced in the barrios and the close way in the center where we tourists all got first. And that is why we know the social close form first though it's not the only one. The same milonguero could (in the close embrace) dance small like usual in the center with half a square meter of space for the couples and later that night do a more complicated form when there was more space. Tete and Eduardo are examples of this, next to many others less well-known. Since milonguero was a pejorative word with a meaning more or less "the guy that dances all night long, doesn't like to work, leaves his wife and children at home, and is on the hunt for other women," it wasn't something a milonguero would want to call himself, neither the ones that didn't fit the description nor the ones who did. Cacho Dante and Eduardo Aguirre luckily are among the huge number of non-typicals. Cacho has his own company, and Eduardo Aguirre worked in Teatro Colon for 20 years, and both leave women in peace.

    Even in 1995 Tete declared that he was dancing Tango de salon. I still remember that night we sat with a big crowd at Plaza Dorrego with dancers from Europe confused about the holds and terms when Tete made things clear. A memorable and almost historic moment for me was when Cacho made his new business card in 1997. I had lost his phone number and so he gave me his new business card which read: Cacho Dante - tango milonguero style.When I saw it, I started laughing and we laughed together for about ten minutes. We both knew, right then and there, times had changed. The important thing is that milongueros go and dance for the music first; that separates them from dancers of Tango fantasia or Tango Danza.

    Q: So really by saying "tango de salon" you are encompassing all the style of tango which you would do in a social context...

    A: Yes, not me but the milongueros I refer to with my definition. It's their definition. It comprises what Eduardo Arquimbau calls club tango, club style, milonguero, the form of the early forties of tango liso with no figures at all. There is a bit of confusion in the United States, but as you go and ask the big crowd of historic salon dancers in Buenos Aires, they all say they are dancing tango de salon. As I mentioned earlier, in 1995 Tete said he dances tango de salon, and in 1994 Cacho said the same. You can say that tango de salon is everything with the feet on the ground that was danced from the Forties.
     
  11. LoveTango

    LoveTango Member

    I miss you, too.
     
  12. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    I am really glad that you are posting this stuff, JT. What I see is a real consistency in how the story is told by Cacho, Susana, and now Yvonne.
     
  13. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    This is how I use the term Salon, as well. However, I am aware that there are other people who use the term to only mean VU style, (or estilo del barrio).
     
  14. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    JAN, THIS IS THE BEST THING YOU HAVE EVER POSTED! BRAVO, AND THANK-YOU.

    This is what I (and others of us with less clout than some of the names you mentioned) have been telling dancers for years. I remember Suzanna saying the exact same thing when we met several years ago ... in Alaska of all places. You have said this before as well, but for some reason it just comes across greatly here.
     
  15. jantango

    jantango Active Member

    We know that tango de salon is danced with the feet on the floor. There are many professional couples in Argentina teaching things inappropriate for social dancing. The result is tango de salon has more choreography for exhibition than improvisation for the milonga. Salon champions do more performing than milongueando. They teach what they do, so let the buyer beware.

    Those who learn from a milonguero will not be led astray in tango.
     
  16. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    You are so right. And putting some more coal on the fire: when you ask salón champions after some wine or beer whom they adore and they compare to they surely will mention only stage performers (estilo escenario) without exception (As far as it happend to me, anyway).

    This is a perversion of the original idea of salón dancing. Everyone will know that tango de salón once started liso and without figures at all (in contrast to orillero, carnival, street, bar dancing, and the like).
     
  17. Mladenac

    Mladenac Well-Known Member

    And what is feet on the ground?

    AFAIK During Tango Salon competitions you are not allowed to raise you leg i.e. feet above knee level.

    A lot of stuff is leadable respecting that constraint that purist would say it's not Tango Salon and within couple's space.

    I had a conversation recently with a tango teacher who learned tango 30 years ago and it seems that he hasn't adapted to modern style of dancing.
    He told me that he cannot dance anymore cause of different styles i.e. women follow differently what he is used to.
    We had a few sentences more about different style danced across the world.
     

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