Ballroom Dance > NDCA Syllabus Online (not really)

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by DanceMentor, Mar 12, 2017.

  1. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    So I was excited to see the NDCA website had the syllabus on YouTube
    They seem to have all of the international (which we know is pretty much ISTD, right?). Then for American they just have bronze. Is American just an afterthought? Seems like American would be the area that requires the most clarification, and instead this is where it is lacking. Hoping there are plans to finish what they started.
  2. RiseNFall

    RiseNFall Well-Known Member

    Those have been there for a couple of years. I think @Larinda McRaven pointed them out when they were posted.
    Larinda McRaven likes this.
  3. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    Yes, I think I remember that. I did not realize it was so old because it is still on the first page of the NDCA Press Releases page. I suppose that's only furthers my point that american-style is an afterthought. And again I hope they will do something to address this as I would love to see the syllabus posted online.
  4. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    American is not an afterthought. There is a very clear Silver American syllabus posted online. And the syllabus committee is currently working on a NDCA gold American syllabus. (Also if one were to study the NDCA approved steps in international they would see that it is not a direct copy of the ISTD syllabus.)

    As someone that actually sits in the NDCA meetings, and has been though this discussion at the table, I can tell you that there was talk at a NDCA biannual meetings regarding a possible timeline and finances required to produce more videos. Yet I believe the answer was that a written syllabus list for silver (which is already available online) is really just as good as a video presentation. It is simply a reference material for a variety of, already recognized through various teaching organizations, patterns that are allowed at NDCA events.

    The NDCA bronze videos were originally distributed direct to the NDCA registered competitors. I proposed at the meeting making them available online, and then I personally uploaded the videos onto NDCA's YT page. So why not make and upload silver videos too? Because in reality every qualified and certified teacher already knows what a silver paseo is... so why do we need to spend money to produce more videos demonstrating it other teaching organization's steps? If someone doesn't know what a paseo is.... they probably need to get in with a good teaching organization and take some professional teacher exams. The teaching organizations are the ones responsible for teaching pros what a paseo is... not the NDCA.

    The NDCA approved list of steps and elements is not meant to be a substitute for a teaching syllabus list, and especially is not a replacement for good quality teachers training and certifications.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017
  5. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    I am merely speaking from the point of view of someone who is looking at the website and there is a clear inconsistency. I understand maybe that updating the website is not a high priority. And I'm of course glad that you advocated for uploading the videos. Could I join you in advocating the rest of the videos? :)
  6. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    Not sure what you mean by inconsistencies. The updated list of approved, bronze and silver, american and international, figures is clearly there.

    I don't advocate uploading the rest of the videos... because there are no silver videos. As I said above, the idea of producing silver videos was put to rest several years ago.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
  7. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    Is this because there is more value to NDCA member organizations to be able to sell the videos, rather than having an open syllabus that is available to the public? Hopefully, this is not an unfair question. I just saw your note about people should find a good teacher if they want to know the steps in silver or gold. Of course, it is a little easier to get all of the steps in international without needing to buy any videos. Of course, the NDCA YouTube channel would be one such example.
  8. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    All fair questions.

    Perhaps lobbing the teaching orgs that create the american syllabi to give their videos away is what you need to do. They are the ones creating the "steps". You would have to ask them what their value is in wanting to sell their product as opposed to distributing their work/information for free. You are friends with Wayne. Why not just ask him to give you all of his DVIDA teaching videos for free.

    NDCA didn't create a teaching syllabus or steps. They listed approved patterns (from various teaching orgs) that they allow in their competitions. You are confusing the purpose of the NDCA (a sanctioning body for competitions) with that of a teaching and professional credentialing organization. Most people do...

    . I am not sure what this is in reference to.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
  9. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    The the NDCA Press release says:
    "NDCA Approved Syllabus on YouTube". It goes on to say they are working hard, and now it is on YouTube. It does not say it is only partially shown.
    It is a bit of a mixed message.
  10. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    The press release has a very obvious time stamp of 2014. And was accurate at the time of release (and even now) as every video that has been produced was uploaded at that time. And the press release page has clearly been updated since because as you can see more recent press releases are listed above it. It isn't as if they put out a 3 year old and currently inaccurate statement yesterday and placed it at the top of the page.

    All of the videos the NDCA has produced are shown on youtube. And all of the written bronze and silver elements/step lists/restrictions are listed on the NDCA website. Everyone knows the rule book is updated twice a year and that is quite conveniently available on the website. Not sure what else you are expecting of them. Or how any of this implies American style as an after thought. Or that the NDCA is "inconsistent".

    Those of us who are registered with the NDCA (and I see that you are not) receive updates via email regarding all sorts of issues. We are also members of teaching organizations, whose job it is to disseminate information regarding NDCA rule changes down the line. There is really no need for the NDCA to double up on their workload by double posting additional updates onto the website, just so people who aren't even part of the NDCA or Member Orgs can have access to that information too.

    If you are concerned with being left out of the loop of information concerning their endeavors, perhaps registering with them would be your first step. Even still I do my best to answer questions here at DF, just so those who are not registered or who don't understand have a familiar person to ask.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017
  11. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    Very obvious? Hehe
    That is what I see on my phone. Seems the website is in need of an upgrade!
  12. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    Note: I found you mean. I am not trying to be difficult. But surely I am not the only one that would have had this experience.
  13. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    As I said above. The press release was accurate at the time of release. Friday February 28 2014. That is what a press release is. If you want to see the current state of affairs you need to read the twice a year updated rule book, or consult your member org, or register with them to get the email updates.

    Screen Shot 2017-03-13 at 1.35.08 AM.png
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
  14. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    Now if you are going to turn this is into bemoaning that the website is not mobile friendly..... I am just going to have to drop this conversation because we are simply at a dead end. lol . Surely you are friends with Ben. Perhaps address him about updating the mobil version to your liking.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
  15. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    note: I find you are acting difficult. I am not trying to be mean. I am trying to help by simply stating very basic facts.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017
  16. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    No problem. I will drop it. I mainly use my phone these days.
  17. JudeMorrigan

    JudeMorrigan Well-Known Member

    Note that this isn't a request for more, but I do want to say that I know that several of the couples in Huntsville have considered the series to be a helpful reference during practice. So thanks. :)
  18. snapdancer

    snapdancer Well-Known Member

    I can understand teachers not wanting to give away the store. What I would suggest to the NDCA if they choose to put out more information would be some examples of common violations that get people invigilated. For example, I have no idea what a "sitting hen" or "horse and cart" are. If more than one person violates a restriction after reading the rulebook, perhaps the rulebook could be made clearer with some supplemental information in the form of a video.
    Borazine likes this.
  19. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    I can appreciate that. I do find the videos to have been a big help for people that need a quick reference. And personally I wish there were silver videos. However as a business owner, I certainly can understand why the decision to not spend money, to produce videos on information already out there, was reached and agreed upon.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017
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  20. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    I can understand that sentiment too. There are common violations that teachers tend to miss over and over. But the rule book is very clear. A sitting hen is not available in silver. The lack of clarity is not with the rule book, it is with the dancer themselves.

    If you, Snapdancer as an amateur, don't know what a sitting hen is, you can take lessons and ask teachers. But if teachers don't know what a sitting hen is, well that isn't for the NDCA to fix. Pros and teachers need to take lessons too, in order to be credible... and that is what the Teaching Organizations are for. It really isn't that hard to find "trainers" or "examiners" for the various orgs, or even a well-respected invigilator. Booking a lesson with them is simple.

    I have advocated for running seminars with invigilators, at big comps, so that teachers can come ask questions and learn. But you then have to rent a meeting room and pay a highly respected invigilator to come talk. That takes money. But most teachers don't come to seminars because they don't want to pay to get in, and because they would not want to appear dumb by asking questions in front of other teachers, and others won't come because they complain that the time is inconvenient. I even think someone from the invigilation committee could run a live event on facebook as students and teachers could tune in live or watch later... but that would have to be done from the goodness of their heart since they wouldn't be getting paid for their presentation.

    So again why is the NDCA tasked with spending money to educate teachers who refuse to shell out money and time to properly invest in their own professional education.

    In the end, when even I have complained that even I was unsure what a particular pattern on the NDCA list was I was told point blank "Book a Lesson!".
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017

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