Swing Discussion Boards > Opinions of Lindy/WCS/Jive Communities on Each Other

Discussion in 'Swing Discussion Boards' started by Apache, Oct 12, 2009.

  1. Apache

    Apache Member

    Hey I know there was a somewhat similar topic to this but I figured instead of making what was a six page topic ending in tangents continue I would start a new topic.

    The comment I posted in that thread that was kind of glazed over was
    But I would like to expand that and ask what communities one is involved with and how do you feel personally and your local community feels about the other dances?

    Personally I am involved with the Lindy Hop community. There are some people in it who dance both WCS and Lindy and then there are others who absolutely dislike WCS and argue it isn't even a swing dance anymore. I've given WCS a shot twice and the aesthetic nor most of the music choices isn't my thing. Jive however in the Lindy Hop community I would say is very disliked to put it nicely. I tried it myself when I took a semester of ballroom in college and to put it nicely again, I didn't like it. I've been on the search for someone who actively dances both Jive and Lindy Hop (I mean active in both communities, not just took a few classes in each) and i've still yet to find that person.

    But i'm interested to hear all the rest of your opinions. Also please be nice, I know a lot of us have strong feelings about our dances but please remain civil.

    (Side note: One thing that I have noticed a lot in the past year is the amount of people in every dance community who publicly insult or talk trash on dances without even have tried the dance. Even the dances I thought I wouldn't like, I gave them a shot. I've never understood this type of behavior.)
  2. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    I don't think there really is a "jive community", just people who pursue it as part of international latin, often with at least partially competitive goals. At a basic level it's just an optimization of ECS for a higher tempo under the tight or precise energy aesthetic of international latin as opposed to the looser almost intentionally frantic energy aesthetic sought in many other swing forms at that tempo.

    Also be sure not to confuse it with "modern jive" or ceroc, which is something else entirely.
  3. Apache

    Apache Member

    Ah, yeah the Jive I have tried and seen locally is done by the Ballroom folk under the International Latin category I believe. What i've found interesting is talking to different people some stress the International Latin part, whereas other stress the "swing related" part.

    I have personally not seen Ceroc or "modern jive" but that is something typically associated with Europe if I am correct?
  4. Flat Shoes

    Flat Shoes New Member

    Modern jive does not look like latin jive, and is a folk swing variation. It is simpler in form and footwork. It is typical European.

    When I started swing dancing it was a kind of modern jive. It is fun, but it lacks a lot of the variation, depth, connection, sophistication etc. that more developed dances have. On the other hand, it can be learned in an hour or two by anyone having a little rhythm.

    It certainly has a valid place in culture as a low entry dance, but I rather not dance it any more if I can avoid it. Also I am very bad at it now.

    At its best modern Jive is OK. At its worst it looks like the leader is trying to tear the followers arm off.

    When it comes to WCS I don't think it swings. It is (often) not danced to swinging music, so how can the dance swing if you are dancing to the music? But it is a great dance anyway in many ways. It has and requires good connection, and has a lot of variation and possibilities. So I don't see why anyone should care about whether it swings or not.

    But WCS is too much ball room for me. I don't like the style and way of moving that much. It is OK and can be fun as a variation, but I prefer the casual style of Lindy where the hips are kept more "flat" and in place.

    I see Lindy, WCS and Boogie Woogie as sophisticated dances. ECS and modern Jive I see as unsophisticated and simplified. Latin Jive is just some weird construction. ;)
  5. jennyisdancing

    jennyisdancing Active Member

    Ask John Festa about that topic. :rolleyes: Seriously, that's a whole other can of worms.

    I don't do Lindy so I don't understand what this means. WCS shouldn't look "ballroom" at all. As for hip movement, WCS does not involve latin dance-style hips. The hips do move during the anchor and on certain other steps sometimes, but this is mainly due to changing your weight and sending your center back. On occasion you can use the hips a little more for styling, but there isn't the same sort of deliberate hip action in the sense that you see it in latin ballroom.
  6. Flat Shoes

    Flat Shoes New Member

    I know. And you probably can swing WCS, but when lots of the music used doesn't swing, why would you want to make the dance swing?

    Compared to Lindy there is a much more upright posture, straighter legs, straighter hips etc.

    I'm not sure what latin hips are supposed to be like. But comparing WCS to Lindy, there is more "rolling" in the hips when moving. Both for the leader and the follower.

    It probably comes from the straighter legs and posture. Instead of sitting back and bending in the knees and having the bounce in the whole body, the bounce (if you can call it that in WCS) is moved more into the hips.

    Compare it to Boogie Woogie again, where there is a lot of bounce in the legs, while the upper body is held more steady and in place.

    I try to describe it as I see it, but it is probably not accurate. But I do see a marked difference in style, and in how the hips are used. And I like the more laid back Lindy style better.
  7. Silveralsa

    Silveralsa New Member

    I might be repeating, but I've not known of a "jive community" existing, since it's swing "ballroomfied". I'm a Lindy crossed over to WCS and I've found both communities to be very friendly and lots of great people. Can't really speak for the ballroom world, since I didn't do it very long.
  8. Apache

    Apache Member

    Hmm, perhaps I may have been more accurate in saying those who compete in International Latin in the Ballroom community? Or the Ballroom community itself?
  9. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    hi Apache, is the same true for ECS, because I think it´s somehow in between both styles?
  10. Silveralsa

    Silveralsa New Member

    While I'm not Apache, hope you don't mind if I put my two cents in. I think ECS falls into the same category as Jive. It doesn't really have a big community, if at all, and is kinda like the "watered down" version of swing (ie Lindy & WCS). Don't mean to step on any toes, but that's what 99.9% of my swing friends think... It didn't help with that GAP commercial that got everyone flinging people around with dangerous aerials and horrible arm flailing...
  11. Apache

    Apache Member

    I agree with what a lot of Silversalsa to some degree. I don't think there is any real "ECS community" but it exists as subsets of different communities. The two I find are: (1. People who dance ballroom and were taught ECS as swing dancing) and (2. People in a newer/smaller swing dance scene where there may be not many people who have a good grasp on Lindy Hop).

    Some people in the Lindy Hop community view ECS as sort of a necessary evil. A lot of people would get discouraged learning Lindy off the bat, compared to ECS which can get most folk dancing in one night and in result a lot of smaller scenes and college campuses use it as a recruitment tool. Others vehemntly dislike ECS and view is as a negative reminder of the past when outside forces tried to shape and pervert their dance (http://history.just-the-swing.com/evil-ballroom).
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2017
  12. Silveralsa

    Silveralsa New Member

    I'll agree with that :)
  13. jennyisdancing

    jennyisdancing Active Member

    Ditto, and add to that, people who learn only ECS because there just aren't any Lindy lessons nearby.
  14. Silveralsa

    Silveralsa New Member

    Ditto-double... Or WCS lessons ;)
  15. Apache

    Apache Member

    I still file that under "2. People in a newer/smaller swing dance scene where there may be not many people who have a good grasp on Lindy Hop", haha.
  16. Albanaich

    Albanaich New Member

    In Lindy the body is forward with the hips back to absorb the momentum of the follower, the feet are much more 'grounded' as in placed flat on the floor, with wieght from the hips ready to go soldily on the heels - again, this is needed because a firm base is required to absorb the momentum of the follower

    In WCS there is much less 'momentum' and energy involved, so the dancer can take a more upright 'straighter leg' (ballroom) posture, with the wieght over the toes rather than the heels because the risk of overbalancing is less.

    Functionally, I find Lindy and WCS pretty much the same dance, one might be called 'slow swing' and the other 'fast swing'.

    I do agree with Flat Shoes on the issue of WCS being danced to music that 'doesn't swing' . It makes me scream that they never dance WCS to the slower Glenn Miller tracks like 'Adios' 'String of Pearls' and 'Frenesi'. WCS was made for that music. . . . .



  17. Silveralsa

    Silveralsa New Member

    Hmm, I found this interesting. I started Lindy back in '99 here in So Cal, and while I agree with hips absorbing more of the momentum/gravity, we were always taught by the pros to stay on balls of our feet. We were told to not put our heels down, since it kills the momentum like a stop sign...

    As for WCS, I agree with it going to a straighter leg when finishing a step, but it's like walking. It's a relaxed/bent-knee to a straight leg. You more kinda "roll" through your feet, but you're still on the balls...

    just my two cents :)
  18. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Hmm, I agree about the balls of the feet thing. I definitely heard that most of the time you wanted to stay forward with Lindy. But come to think of it, there are times when I was taught to be grounded to the heel, like on steps 5, 6 of the throwout.
  19. Silveralsa

    Silveralsa New Member

    See, I think this is the beauty of dance! As long as the moves are the same, I think styling/technique can differ. Now, one may not win as many awards if it looks funky and the judges don't like it...

    Now, I'm not saying perfecting the necessary or original technique should be neglected. But when it comes down to it, this is art...

    my two cents...
  20. Flat Shoes

    Flat Shoes New Member

    Watch this old Kevin and Carla clip. There is a lot of staying on the balls of the feet, but not all the time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZfX3OVW7k4

    This is a very light style, and lindy can be danced much more grounded than this. But I don't have time to search for a good example right now.

    I will say it depends on what (part of a) move is being lead.

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