Salsa > "picking up" at salsa events

Discussion in 'Salsa' started by nycsalsero, Jun 3, 2006.

  1. amo_dile_que_no

    amo_dile_que_no New Member

    Vibrance, very well said. I gave up on posting on this thread along time ago, because most of the guys just didn't "get it". They always responded that their way was a successful way to "pick up" women which they believe is what it's all about. I didn't read much that indicated they wanted to develop some kind of mutually respectful friendship or relationship.

    PS I thought your comments on the "facial expressions" thread were right on, clever, and very funny!:D

    Sorry Josh, I have to disagree with you here. Although no one may have said "treat 'em mean", few gave any indication that they were trying to "take care" of these ladies. The talk was about how you successfully "pick up" women. In most posts from guys there was nothing about treating them with respect or anything other than treating a woman as something to acquire.

    I haven't seen these kinds of comments from you. But, you are apparently interpreting what many of these guys are saying much differently than I am.

    Please don't take my comments as criticism of you. The only reason I responded to you here, rather than the ones who I think are the main offenders, is that you seem to be a very reasonable person. The other guys just don't grasp the concept that their way of thinking may be offensive to women.
  2. genEus

    genEus New Member

    Or at least the concept that some things shouldn't be said in a public forum ;)
  3. thespina13

    thespina13 New Member

    Wow. I see I'm finally amongst sympathizers. Although it may make me unpopular, I have to agree with amo and vibrance's read of the situation. Although I'm sure i've made that obvious. I do know that it takes work to get into a relationship; patience, and a certain crafting of one's approach and attitudes. But I also know how infinitely more uplifting it is for a woman to be treated like a person instead of a game piece, a prize, an acquisition or a conquest.

    I guess I'm not in the same headspace at all. I have a feeling that life hums along at its own pace and things happen that are supposed to happen. MAKING situations happen isn't ultimately fruitful, usually. It can make temporary diversions or escapes possible, but these things ultimately leave us feeling empty. If we focus on dancing, like most of us feel we're there to do, a relationship is a fantastic possibility, but rather tiresome if you';re confronted with myriad hook-up hunters every night you go dancing. The only thing I ever try to do is connect and have fun. Sensitivity IS a great way to bond with other human beings. Sometimes those bonds turn into something more. If not, don't sweat it. You still have salsa.
  4. terremoto

    terremoto New Member

    Most of the time I pay for the date (I'm a man) and don't think much of it. Sometimes my date will offer to pay half or something like that, but I just let them know that its not necessary and thats about as far as that conversation will go. However, Josh makes a very good point. I was on a date (or what I perceived to be a date) and the lady insisted on paying for both of us??? I was definately confused by this but she was dead set on paying. So I was like whatever, go ahead I guess. But she did this, because she wasn't interested in me in anything beyond friends - and didn't want to feel obligated in anyway.
  5. quixotedlm

    quixotedlm New Member

    thespina - what about those who only want the momentary/short term gratification? even that is arguably a legitimate need, isn't it? sometimes, people don't care about ultimate fruitfulness...

    There are conquerers who patiently learn the art of war to annex, and there are grassroots activists who patiently work hard to find a place in their targets hearts. There are those who coerce, and there are those who convince. There is glory and satisfaction in both paths, and they can both be made to be everlasting if attempted right, and managed well afterwards.

    In medicine, and in several engineering disciplines, there are two common ways to attack problems (eg diagnosis of a disease) - symptomatic treatment and root cause analysis. The ultimate goal is the wellness of the patient, but the path taken for that goal can be fundamentally different in each case. With symptomatic treatment, you give medicines that suppresses the symptoms one by one, and if other symptoms emerge, you continue to treat them. Hopefully by the end of it all, you'd have collected enough data to know the actual diagnosis and the correct treatment. Sometimes, doctors try to analyze the root cause by conducting several tests until the disease is well understood, and then treat the underlying problem. It is common to start with symptomatic treatment while working on understanding the underlying problem as well. It is the same when it comes to engineers troubleshooting computer systems or complex machinery.

    Many men (and women) tend to do this instinctively when attempting to woo a beau. They work on the immediate strings of attraction (cocky-funny attitude, playing games in general) and try to strengthen the temporary attration which buys them time to work on the underlying chemistry. Some of the techniques deemed 'disrespectful' are really techniques men have learned by experimentation over years. They are counterintuitive, but they are known to work with several women. So don't blame the use of poisonous digitalis if a certain patient has a heart condition that reacts to the poison with good results, or the use of morphine if someone feels better (less pain) upon using it. Sure it is bad, sure it is addictive or poisonous - but it work as a temporary relief during which you gain time to figure out a more permanent/long term strategy.

    And of course, most ailments do not require a poison or an addictive substance to provide temporary relief, just like most men/women do not require apparently disrespectful games/techniques to woo them.

    As long as you recognize that the short term strategies you use to reinforce mutual attraction doesn't become habitual, I suppose a little counterintuitive game playing is okay.
  6. AzureDreamer

    AzureDreamer New Member

    yeah. I agree totally. (particularily if she doesn't make a point about how much she enjoyed herself and hopes we can go out again another time.)

    yeah, exactly on the money.

    Totally agree with Josh's post.

    As a guy, I totally disagree. (this may work for women.) You need to make things happen, take charge... decide what you want and make it happen. You need to be decisive and persistent. You need to approach women, create situations, constantly watch the details... its always the small stuff that matter. So pay attention, learn from your mistakes, and don't lose heart.
  7. elgrancombo

    elgrancombo New Member

    My last girlfriend insisted on paying for our first dinner out together. We dated over a year. My best friend has been happily married to the girl he first had a one-night stand with (though I think he regrets disclosing that!). Sometimes things just happen. Sometimes you make them happen. You guys are trying to make strict rules where there aren't any.
  8. thespina13

    thespina13 New Member

    quix... amazingly articulate. Thank you. Azure, true. I seem to frequently forget that my husband really did use a lot of crazy tactics to get me. elgran, I don't know if anyone is making rules. i think we're all just fascinated by deconstructing this thing that happens in us and around us all the time, that we never actually discuss.
  9. englezul

    englezul New Member

    So you concluded they didn't. Mind you this thread is about "meeting NEW women", women that you don't know, women that are not in your social circle. This thread concentrates on the initial part of the interaction: triggering interest in the other person and also attraction; it does not say anything about the relationship with that woman past the "pickup" point, other than keep it interesting and exciting. In a relationship things will modify because it's different.

    The reality is that a really beautiful woman is a 'prize' for a man, just like high status man is a 'prize' for a woman. Both genres will brag about their new boyfriend/girlfriend to their friends if they really think he/she is really great.

    In our world a man is 'ranked' by the society in terms of what other women he's dating (attractiveness) and in terms of the lifestyle he's got (wealth). Meaning women will be impressed if he dates only drop dead gorgeous women and men will respect him for having acquired a good fortune. Women will care about money (given that they're not actively looking for them) in the sense that it will be another quality that this guy has and that translates more into 'capacity/ability to be successful' rather than 'rich' (really regardless of whether he's the one who made it in the first place) and transform it into a quality about his personality. And the last case...Men will admire the men who date very beautiful women and also perhaps mutter words like 'lucky son of a bitch' when in fact it has nothing to do with luck and less than one might think with looks.

    To be honest I do not respect people I barely met or that I do not know nothing about. I will treat them well, I will be nice and polite because I'm a good person, but respect? No, I don't give respect 'by default'. Respect has to be earned.

    The reason your labeling 'their way of thinking' as offensive to women is because you cannot decode the information provided by Azure and you created an inaccurate cognitive model based on it. This is a crude rationalization that explains the outcomes of interactions and is not the way the interaction looks when done right. At no point will this look or feel offensive. What really happens is that a man who understands interactions, understands women, is the man who will make them happy and give them the strongest emotions. Seriously now, something to think about. Did you know romance novels produce more revenue in one year than all the other genres combined? Do you know who reads them? Women. Almost exclusively. Did you pick one up and read about what women fantasize? About the male prototypes depicted in those books? Read and then tell me what women want is a nice guy. They want a man who can connect to the woman in it masculine merging with feminie energy. And part of being a man is being a male. Just like part of being a woman is being a female. We are wired by nature to respond like this to eachother.
  10. ash88

    ash88 New Member

    Pure gold. Absolute gold :)
  11. Vibrance

    Vibrance New Member

    I wouldn’t view a women’s insistence to pay for half of a meal as a sign that she wasn’t into me – instead I would regard it as a sign of someone who is strong and independent. I value these qualities – I guess others don’t?

    Josh, you’re absolutely right I haven’t put into practice the methods I describe, this is because I’m in a happy long term relationship.
    However during my time dancing I’ve met several attractive single women who I know would say yes to an informal date if I was not attached (and for some it wouldn’t matter that I am with someone).
    This is based on me working hard on my dancing and generally being an OK guy.

    I’m not dismissing AzureDreamer’s observations and agree that aiming for one night stands is a pointless exercise. As for his other suggestions, I’m sure they work – I would call this method ‘Playing the field’

    Other people’s advice involves ‘Playing Games’, I’m sure this will do the job too.

    But what’s the noun for someone who plays?

    My argument is that you can get dates at salsa events without being (wait for it…) a player.
  12. AzureDreamer

    AzureDreamer New Member

    Unlike you, most of the rest of us don't assume women are weak and need men to do everything for them to begin with. Being strong and independent isn't something they need to prove to you or anyone else. Your veiled contempt of women is pretty pathetic. :)

    The message I would get from offering to split a bill is that they wanted to keep our relationship on a "business footing"; the kind of relationship where its not ok to give gifts or presents to each other. Its a fairly nice way of indication a lack of romantic interest, but that's how I would take it.

    The alternative... they offer to split the bill, and are interested... to me that's even worse; I am so utterly uninterested in a "business relationship". Its along the same lines as, "Lets quit playing games, just put our cards on the table. You aren't that young anymore, don't have a lot of options. I've got a lot of money, I need a wife, and I'm not getting any younger myself... what do you say?"

    ugh, no. Is that that the 'modern' woman's view of romance? A bit less passion than a corporate merger?

    It'd be ok for her to pay for the bill, or offer to pay for the next one, or to do something else... but split it? never. The whole idea of some kind of "transaction" between buying something and "services rendered" is a pretty unappealing one... offering to split the bill because this is the way you consider our relationship? majorly bad.. I kind of view guys who expect to split a bill the same way; who wants to date someone with the soul of an accountant? these are ones to avoid.
    (someone mentioned romance novels... I always take those as an -extremely- good sign. More than anything else, that's the one characteristic I have noticed in girls I have dated is that they are all really into romance novels.)
  13. englezul

    englezul New Member

    Interesting point with splitting/not splitting the bill. Honestly getting myself into a handle the bill situation on the first date would be the last thing I do. Many girls are used to having their dinner paid for...cause that's what men seem to be doing most of the time, it's the 'tradition' in terms of dating protocol, and many of them pay for the wrong reasons (one of them would simply be that they find it uncomfortable splitting the bill and another is that they feel like they should pay since they were the ones asking for the date).

    I couldn't care less about the money, in fact I blow them pretty easily, but if in a situation where me and my 'date' don't yet know eachother so well (first 1-2 dates at least), and she is not offering to pay for her part I take it as a negative sign because I don't see any reason why she should presume 1) I want to pay for her 2) It's normal that I pay for her 2) not offering to pay for herself would put me in an uncomfortable position if 1) or does not apply. So the quickest way I will lose interest in someone is if they are socially unaware. Honestly the fact that they let you pay at the end is not an indicator of any sorts. So might as well not pay. Everybody should carry their own financial responsibilities.

    A nice way to do it is to put the bill sideways so she can see her order. If she reaches to read it, then I might just put everything on my credit card. If she doesn't I will bust her balls for being a princess and see how she responds.
  14. thespina13

    thespina13 New Member

    Who the hell reads romance novels? Maybe we should poll the women in this forum.
  15. Josh

    Josh Active Member

    So, to let someone pay for a meal means implies weakness and dependence? Have you never had a meal with friends where you picked up the check, or one of them did? It's a sign of closeness (or the potential for it)--it also leaves the door open for returning the favor (the other party pays next time perhaps), hence, getting together again.

    I'm very glad for you that you're in a happy relationship. But vibrance, I seriously can't help but marvel at how you "know they would say yes"... too many "ifs" in there... IF you weren't in a relationship... IF you were to ask them... Theory and practice are two different animals. Guys misread women's signals ALL the time--it's a BIG mistake to think you can read them that well (especially in your case, since they won't think that you'll take friendliness the wrong way, since you're in a relationship and they know that). Also, I'm not sure what you mean by an "informal" date... that sounds like a situation where you agree beforehand that it's a "friends-only" affair. If that is the case, that doesn't really fit what we're talking about here.

    Finally, are you saying that you know the reason they would say yes is because of your "working hard on your dancing and generally being an OK guy"?? So let me get this--you've created a hypothetical situation in your mind where you and your girlfriend have split, you've asked a girl out, she's said yes, and then you proceed to read her thoughts (which exist in theory) and know the reason why she said yes? Seriously dude, ask ANY close female friend (even a dancer) who you truly trust if good criteria for a romantic partner would be limited to (a) good dancing and (b) being an "OK guy". Are you kidding? Maybe you're super good looking. Maybe you're brilliant. Maybe you're wealthy. Maybe you have a super funny personality and are very outgoing. Women like men for these reasons (and other reasons we have no space to list). But a woman will not date you for any significant period of time simply because you're an "OK guy" and a good dancer. I completely agree that romantic partners MUST be friends with each other--but romantic feelings go beyond friendly feelings. Being a nice guy is essential--but surely you must know a lot of "nice" girls who you are not romantically attracted to... Something else must be there for a romantic relationship to exist.

    Well, you are entitled to call it what you want... but that doesn't make it so. It's easy to read something and picture a situation in your head where a guy is getting phone numbers left and right, calling one after the other, setting up dates adjacent to one another with different women, trying to pull the wool over their eyes, and so on. Think that if you want. But we're talking about nothing of the sort.
  16. AzureDreamer

    AzureDreamer New Member

    I really think being "friends" is really bad for a romantic relationship; I think you want to always maintain a very exagerated level of consideration, treat them as something "special"... and you want them to treat you as something "special" as well.

    I'm still "friends" with every girl I've dated seriously... we still have a lot in common, they are interesting, charming. We'll go out for a dinner, and split the bill. We'll both kind of complain about how bad our day was, talk about problems. Breaking up is the easiest thing, you just start treating them like a friend, rather than a romance. (seriously)

    and being "friends" first... and then trying to move to "romance"... just really difficult. Game over, man. Part of that is mindset, and part of it is taking risks. I think "romance" is all about taking risks; in particular, emotional risks. and you either take the risk, chance losing what you have... risk rejection, or you don't get anywhere. When you start as friends, there is too much to lose.

    well, for me... its always something like ... "can I imagine myself standing behind her, my arms around her waist, kissing her on the neck as we look out at the sunset over the river" ... something like that is the litmus test for a relationship. and I think women are much the same... you get her thinking along those lines, and you are golden. (but you just don't think that way about your friends!)
  17. terremoto

    terremoto New Member

    Oh, Oh, I do, I do!!! Just Kidding :D

    What about movies that are geared more for women, commonly referred to as "chick flicks" - are they a somewhat accurate representation of what women dream about. I haven't seen a lot of these movies, but the ones I have seen generally involve an attractive man pursuing a woman even though the woman pushes him away.
  18. thespina13

    thespina13 New Member

    Ooooh. We should start a whole new thread in a feminist forum about that.
  19. AzureDreamer

    AzureDreamer New Member

    Seriously though... that's the one piece of information that I'd really want to know about a woman. (and a lot of them would be embarassed to tell you the truth!) I'm not sure what cause and effect is... whether its that they read a lot just for pleasure... or whether reading those kinds of books after a while gets them in the right mindset, or they are just mentally prepared for anything... women who read romance novels are just better lovers, more sensual, more responsive, more romantic... the whole deal.

    (note to self: time to start hanging out at the bookstore to start meeting girls who browse the romance section.)
  20. thespina13

    thespina13 New Member

    Hehe. interesting perspective. I wonder where I learned how to be sensual, responsive and romantic? Weird.

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