Tango Argentino > Possible "moves" after the Follower's Cross

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by tangomonkey, Oct 1, 2010.

  1. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    You don't feel the cross as collecting but rather a fully-weighted step? From my very limited perspective trying the step I feel it as a collecting movement and remain fully weighted on the back foot. But what do I know? I've only done a back-stepping cross about 30 times and without a leader...
  2. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    Peaches and Zoopsia59 (or anyone else): does this make sense?

    I step forward with my left foot and begin rotating my torso left, undoing my dissociation by the time I am fully weighted on the left foot. My torso rotation indicates a cross, yes? As the follower crosses I am collecting my right foot. If I then transfer weight to it the follower has an indication to shift weight forward to the crossed foot, yes? If I do not transfer weight to my right her weight should remain on the back foot, yes?
  3. Gssh

    Gssh Well-Known Member

    I think this makes sense, but i would personally look at it differently - your toso rotation does not indicate anything - your toros rotation rotates your followers torso, and consequently her hips. Because her hips are now no longer at a right angle to the direction she is moving in her feet no longer have the space to pass each other. The angle of her hips in relation to the direction she is moving in first (for the "orthodox" cross) makes her right foot land "behind" or even slighly to the left of her right foot if we look at it based on the direction of her movement, and then when her left foot continues moving again following the line of her movement it would have to pass through her right foot. It obviously can't, and she ends up crossed. The undoing of the leaders dissociation and the leaders weighshift then both contribute to the followers weightshift by changing the both the direction of her hips, her balance, and the vector on which she is moving. I personally think that to keep her on her back foot maintaining the dissociation is probably more important than not shifting the weight. At this point most followers will feel quite uncomfortable because they know that if you continue to move she will fall because she is trapped. Unless she trusts you very much she will either uncross and collect (getting out of the trap by having her left foot pass her right foot behind) or shift weight (getting out of the trap the standard cross way). To avoid this it helps to "hang" her in a tiny volcada, i.e. do not move far enough to let her regain her balance, but a little bit less. She will be off balance, but she will not feel that you are going to "run through" her. One of the things i realized playing with crosses (especially when following) is that being crossed, before the weightshift, is a really, really scary place to be in, because if the leader continues straight without allowing the weightshift the follower is going to fall down.

    YMMV and all that - i think in the end talking about technique is always more a metaphor than anything else, and highly dependent on how one has organized dance in ones head.
  4. v22TTC

    v22TTC New Member

    Did you mean "I step forward with my left foot and begin rotating my torso right"? If so, then the rest sounds all good.

    It's similar to what Gssh wrote in terms of it not being an indication (as in the signal for a turn direction in Salsa, say) but is TA-'natural movement': her left foot being to the right of her right foot (slightly) is a natural consequence of the rotation (imagine you quickly rotated her by the shoulders (to the right) to make her feet swing round, in terms of body-mechanics).

    As you then collect your right foot, you rotate back to the left (to be not dissociated at all), which forces her to pull her left foot back out of the way, into the cross. The solidity with which you make that step (and sureness with which you indicate that you've transferred weight) tells her whether to weight her left foot, as she moves it (along with her perception of your motion/slowing down etc, as Peaches mentioned).

    That's how we do it, and I make sense of it... if you did mean 'rotate left' then... I'm confused....
  5. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member


    I should have said: "While walking outside my partner's right, my torso being dissociated to my right (left shoulder forward, right one back), I step forward with my left foot and begin rotating my torso left, bringing my shoulders into alignment with my hips (almost but not entirely) by the time my weight has been fully transferred. In order to maintain our torso alignment as I rotated my torso leftwards, she crossed left foot over right, with her weight on the back foot. I collect with my right and if I transfer my weight she transfers hers to her crossed left foot."

    Only one possibility...

    It is near impossible to put into words any sort of subtlety or nuance that would occur during an actual dance or even a demo. This is the best I can up with at this time.
  6. v22TTC

    v22TTC New Member

    Tangomonkey: No, your explanation was sound - I knew exactly what you meant, but was confused about the direction of rotation as you step left.

    Having (just) worked through both rotation directions, don't you end up with something like this (assuming that you're walking directly into the LoD)?:-

    Right (CW): Both partners are square to the LoD (LoD going through the centre of their chests, with shoulder-shoulder axes perpendicular to the LoD);

    Left (CCW): Both partners are oblique to the LoD, facing to the left of it... so it'd be handy for going round a corner (CCW), say.

    I've never come across the left rotation method before, and am a really nuts-and-bolts learner [but not doer], so I'd really appreciate hearing your thoughts about this.:)
  7. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Eh, I don't see your weight post-cross weight change to your right foot as being an indication to change my weight to the crossed foot. (I realize that's clear as mud, but I can't think of how to make it clearer.)

    I don't pay attention to the man's weight changes. I pay attention to the weight changes he asks me to do. You could do a flippin' jig while I'm crossing, and if you don't ask me to change my weight it wouldn't matter to me. Besides, it's kind of changing weight in opposite directions, in a way. You switch to your right (to weight the right foot), but you're thinking that I'm going to switch to my right as well (onto the left foot, which is crossed, and therefore to my right, which is on your left)? That just doesn't seem to make sense. As I sit here in the kitchen thinking in through instead of trying it. If you keep moving, then it's a definite weight change. Beyond that...individual circumstances.

    I think. I'm not a leader.
  8. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    quite right..but one must make assumptions about what the follower will do; most will do a weight change if led into a cross position therefore you have to lead her to deliberatley not put her weight down; same as you would do for a calesita; something in your lead must say stay up eg if its lead as a rebote/rebound then her weight goes further back and she cant get her weight onto her crossed foot...

    bleedin' hobvious innit, eh Bailey?
  9. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    I think of the crusada as a step. And, I think when a follower is lead to take any step she should take a complete step, full change of weight and collect on the standing foot. Unless, she is lead to do otherwise.

    I have, occasionally, lead a woman toward a crusada but then changed the lead before she actually crossed, but that was just in a moment of playing with her mind.
  10. v22TTC

    v22TTC New Member

    [Using 'my' and 'your' for convenience...]

    The way we do it round here, is that your left foot only goes back into the crossed position in response to my right foot moving forward (as I collect), accompanied by a little left rotation, since my foot is moving into that foot's space.

    If I glide forward and round then you'll glide your foot back and not transfer weight; if I give it some 'stepping into the floor', then you'll weight the foot.

    I don't think that the relative directions matter too much, in view of the 'weight on alternating feet rule' - you've just stepped back with right, if another weight change is led then it 'should' be left, wherever it is in relation to the other foot.
  11. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    All three points are almost exactly what I intended, but obviously poorly described. I think though, that the indication to cross happens somewhere during my left rotation and her cross is completed as/when I collect my right foot. Minor difference...
  12. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    "That is not logical" Spock

    If you step normally forward; then the(her) free leg stays free ie with no weight, unless you lead a weight change; so if you lead her to collect in the cross position the same should be true, logically.
  13. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Finally, back to the world I live in. It's a step, so there is a weight change.
  14. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    In my mind the follower's back step is the step, with full weight transfer. The left cross over is a collection until/unless weight is transferred to it ("collect on the standing foot"). Should she automatically transfer her weight to the crossed foot at the time it is crossed - without a lead to do so? That has been my experience with most (all?) followers. I am simply attempting to find alternatives, and following the assumption that nothing happens unless it is led.
  15. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    IMO, it's a step, so when you lead a step, part of that is the weight change. If you don't want a weight change to occur, you are leading something other than a step.

    Certainly (with practice) you can lead the followers free leg/foot to move around, draw circles, whatever, but that's not a step.

    I thought the question was, what to do after she crosses, which to me means once the weight change occurs and she is on her left foot.
  16. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    Yup, that's the topic of this thread. I had previously only thought about how to move, assuming the the followers weight on the forward foot. The idea that that is not necessarily so got us off into a discussion of the cross itself.
  17. ant

    ant Member

    I am not sure that you can say it is a step.

    Certainly the first part of the lead into the cross is for the folllower to believe she should step but once that process has started the leader will either straighten his disociation (if on the outside) or bring in more forward movement though and disociate his body (if in a linear position). In either case he is then indicating to the follower that he is no longer leading a step. At which point there will need to be a furhter indication in the lead for her to make a weight change.
  18. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    In case I am confused about what we were talking about, I thought it was step 5 of the 8 count basic (the cross, AKA cruzada). It is a step, thus there is a weight change.


    To the OP, note that this does say (at step 5) that many variations for the lady begin from this position.
  19. ant

    ant Member

    My reading of the OP is not the same as yours.

    I think what you are saying is that the cross completes when the there is a weight change after the cross and I suppose I am saying that the cross is before the weight change (although I am prepared to be corrected on that score).
    Whoever is right on the above point however does not change my view on your premis that the cross is a step. As I have stated above the lead starts that way but once you induce the crossing over of the followers left leg it stops being a step and so the lead requires something further for a weight change to occur at the cross.
  20. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    I was trying to avoid thinking in terms of the basic 8 and the automatic "close/resolution". Naturally, if the intention is to step forward out of the cross (leading the follower to back step with the right) then a weight transfer to the follower's crossed left foot has to have taken place, otherwise she risks falling over backwards. I think we are splitting hairs - it seems to depend on the leader's intention after the cross; that will determine if he transfers her weight to the front foot or not. (If he is able to lead either)

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