Tango Argentino > Possible "moves" after the Follower's Cross

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by tangomonkey, Oct 1, 2010.

  1. ant

    ant Member

    Hi tangomonkey

    I attended weekend of workshops with Detlef and Melina one of which was about The Cross and their ideas on exits therefrom.

    The maths go something like this

    In their opinion there are 5 possible exits from The Cross:

    1 Back step of follower (forward for the leader)
    2 Forward ocho
    3 Backward ocho
    4 90 degree pivot and forward step left
    5 90 degree pivot and forward step right

    these steps can be done by the lead or the follow so that gives 25 combinations

    This can be done with or without leading a weight change when the follower does her Cross. This then doubles up the 25 combinations above.

    Then there are 4 possible foot combinations going into the cross

    1+2 leaders left foot weight bearing in parrallel and cross system
    3+4 leaders right foot weight bearing in parrallel and cross system

    Nobody was sure whether you could then multiply up the 25x2 combinations above as some of the foot combinations may not allow all 5 of the exits listed above.

    However if they could that would have given 200 possible entry and exit combinations.
     
  2. Mosca Negra

    Mosca Negra New Member

    It hurts me to read a message like the one Ant posted. How can anyone suggest the reduction of Argentine Tango to 5 possible exits from the cross and 200 possible entry and exit combinations? My goodness. Are they issuing rule books at milongas now?
     
  3. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    Maybe ask Naveira, Salas, Frumboli, et. al. I understand this was exactly the type of analysis they did.

    Not a process I would personally like to go through for every tango step/figure/movement, but it could be an interesting exercise... maybe I'll visualize all the cross combinations. :p or NOT :nope:
     
  4. Mladenac

    Mladenac Well-Known Member

    AFAIK They started to analyze the structure of the movement.

    To you may step forward, but you can do it in 1000 ways.
    It's still step forward more indefinite than definite.

    You can also lead front linear boleo and exit you on either sides,
    or lead front linear boleo into back boleo.
     
  5. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    This sort of analysis isn't personally helpful, but it is similar in approach to Paz/Hart's view (Gotta Tango) that there is a very limited range of movement options from which all tango is constructed.

    The obvious fact is that as you combine those basic elements in different ways, you soon reach a huge number of possible outcomes, four or five steps from your start, and the opportunities just keep multiplying as you continue. Tango is thus very simple, in essence, and yet rich and varied in fact.
     
  6. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    the bold text; this isnt logical; you can lead the follower into these 5 exits

    then you have the leaders options; most of which are conditional on which leg you are standing on; so you cant necessarily do 25 x 25, and you have a couple of options to lead her around you, without stepping eg giro to man's left (CCW)
     
  7. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    You might be surprised. It would certainly seem to be the case, given some of the posting around here... :rolleyes:
     
  8. ant

    ant Member


    Your post could be taken as quite sad, if you think that is all that was discussed and taught by quality teachers.

    The first part of my post stated that the maths, (as distinct from the dancing), went along the lines stated. Many other considerations and options were also discussed. They were trying to show how easy it would be for us to build up different exercises when we were pratising entries into and exits (which is what I understood was asked for in the OP) from the cross and that took all of about 1 minute in a 11/2 hour workshop.
     
  9. ant

    ant Member

    I did not use 25x25 but 25x2. The two representing whether or not you led the follower to transfer her weight one she crossed.

    D+M were talking about first step options only at this point. They also explained a number of 2 and 3 step options coming out of the cross, including the Giro.
     
  10. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    I should not have used the word "exactly" since in all honesty I don't know exactly what they did. Quote: "We (Naveira and Salas) would get together and try crazy things, to find the underlying structural possibilities. I remember one night we discovered that there were 98 possible ganchos in the turn!" Sounds like they were doing the kind of thing Ant posted - but maybe I don't get what "underlying structural possibilities" means.
     
  11. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    Not in a printed form and not just "now", but yes, the codigos. :cheers:

    Point taken...
     
  12. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    google "Codigo Violation Competition" and see what you get :D
     
  13. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

  14. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I thought the point of ant's post was that the possible moves related to the cross are so limitless as to be not worth making any special note of.

    To me, the cross is the neutral starting/ending position. You can go anywhere from there. If you don't want the follower on the left foot, you can do a weight change before you go "anywhere from there". It's really not much different than having the couple standing with their feet together and putting the follower's weight on the desired foot and then going anywhere you want after getting on the desired foot yourself.
     
  15. ant

    ant Member

    To make the point that no special note should be made of all the options, I think you can take the maths even further.

    Personally I do not see why you cannot take the follower into a forward step (leader goes back) or a side step to the side of the unweighted foot. That would then give 7 first step options.

    This then potentually multiples up as follows:

    7 (first step options) x 7 (by leader and/or follower) x 2 (leading or not leading a weight change in the cross) x 4 (entry variations) x 2 (as the cross could be led the other way).

    Giving 784 potentual variations.
     
  16. Mosca Negra

    Mosca Negra New Member

    Perhaps I did miss that point entirely. My objection was more to the academic nature of the posts as relates to the art of dance. I am certain the posts have merit as a mathematical treatise of the permutations and combinations of the Argentine Tango cross.

    I can't imagine that this variation based theory of the cross is anything more than taking the mickey on the forum. On that basis alone, I find it somewhat amusing and look forward to the number of variations possible for a romantic kiss.
     

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