Tango Argentino > Videos > Quickstep-Tango

Discussion in 'Videos' started by opendoor, Nov 7, 2010.

  1. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Watch that energetic dancing of Alejandra and Mariano. I like it very much!

    w ww.youtube.com/watch?v=2HMyJ7LuLKs
  2. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Nice. :)

    Don't know why you say it's quickstep, but it's nice anyhow. I appreciate that it looks as if the two of them are really enjoying themselves and having fun with each other. Doesn't help that their phrasing with the music is spectacular.
  3. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Twas meant in a double sense: the music is a FoxTrot and their stepping now and again is really fast.
  4. Mladenac

    Mladenac Well-Known Member

    Could you name the song, please?

    It's not definitely a foxtrot.

    A lot of song used to be marked as a foxtrot that aren't.
  5. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Re: Fox or not to Fox

    .. and also a lot the other way round :tongue:

    It´s "Zapatos Rotos" from Enrique Rodriguez.

    Another great one is "Noches de Hungría". Hungría
  6. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    double post, please remove
  7. Mladenac

    Mladenac Well-Known Member

    There was thread about that.

    "japonesita" by E.R. is also marked as foxtrot but it's actually pasodoble in BsAs. :cool:

    when mark the song
  8. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member


    "Japonesita" really is unique, and we actually discussed about Pasos in this respect. His most widely known is "El Sombrero". Sure you can here the differences in the rhythm: Sombrero

    Pasos are in 2/4 whereas Foxes are in 4/4. But you are right, "Japonesita" could have also been written in a 2/4 signature. The same with tango duro and bravo pieces. Tango should be in 4/4 but Biagi scores are often reduced to a 2/4 signature. Someone in this forum just called it Elégance.

    Foxtrot is the dance that belongs to the music called ragtime. Ragtime has an alternating bass groove and a typical high hat pattern. The high hat pattern is the same as for swing, but the bass groove is "walking" over 2 bars.

    "Zapatos Rotos" is taken from the CD "Los Reyes Del Fox" ReyesDelFox
    Here some other CDs of ER from the series "Reliquias" with labelled pieces Reliquias

  9. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Not a ballroom expert, but that music seems awfully fast for FT. Those foxes would be more than trotting, or even cantering.. they'd be galloping! Or, as you say, Quickstepping. (what time sig is Quickstep?)

    Nobody around here that I know would be able to do a Fox Trot to that, but most of the Tango dancers could easily do milonga to it. I don't equate milonga with Fox Trot at all, musically or dance'ably.

    It definitely sounds more "Quick-Quick, Slow" to me than "Slow, Slow, Quick-Quick". In fact, When I try to count it out as SSQQ, it doesn't fit. I end up with SSQQS which brings it into the phrasing of American Ballroom Tango right?

    Maybe we're in the rhelm of differences between American and International styles of ballroom?

    As I say, I'm no ballroom expert. But I'd NEVER guess Fot Trot for that music or try to do Fox Trot to it.
  10. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Pablo Gomez of Fort Lauderdale, Florida, USA, creates a video with Argentine Tango set in Budapest. (I took a photograph of the "Chain Bridge" from just about the same angle as one of the shots in the vid.)
    Small World, eh?

    Is there sheet music that has the "Foxtrot" designation?

    After looking at a fair amount of old scores (and some newer stuff, too), I think it's obvious that publishers will quite often put, what in retrospect seems like crazy stuff on scores to "sell" the music.
    One non AT example I ran across this weekend is a song called "Guitar Boogie", originally written by country music guy Arthur Smith. It was rereleased (according to Billboard) as "Guitar Boogie Twist" when an electric guitar version by the Virtues was a hit as "Guitar Boogie Shuffle" in the early 60s.

    At one time, and for a long time, Foxtrot was one of, if not THE most popular dance(s).
    "Quickstep"??? Their dancing looks very unlike the quickstep I see on DWTS or SYTYCD (which about the some total of what I know about it).
    We've touched on ragtime and "AT" before. "Argentine Tango" was not, and is not, I think, immune to influence by other forms of music.

    I'm going to sidestep getting into ragtime/swing/foxtrot for now.

    Not saying I'm anywhere near as good as either of these two dancers, but I can sure identify with how they are reacting to the music.

    Oh, did I mention that I like it?
    It's attractive to me in the same way that "swing" dancing and music can be "fun".
  11. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    It's certainly not the quickstep dance but that's not surprising nor necessary is it?

    The story goes that in mid 1910s Foxtrot was about 32 bars per minute (4/4 time)
    and the bands speeded it up to 34 then to 42-48 bars per minute by 1920
    with American bands in 1922 playing it as fast as 48 bars per minute.
    This faster tempo affected and changed the dance with some bands
    eventually playing at over 50 bars per minute and it became the
    Quick-time Foxtrot and Charleston (QTF&C) while the Foxtrot itself
    became slower again.

    The QTF&C resulting from the speeding up Foxtrot inevitably evolved by
    incorporating influences from other flamboyant dances into simply the Quickstep.
    Meanwhile the original ever slowing Foxtrot became the Slow Foxtrot to differentiate
    between the now slower 30 bars per minute and its earlier original quicker tempo.

    Based on information from Victor Sylvester's Modern Ballroom Dancing
    (first published 1977, my edition 2005, so modern in Ballroom terms!).

    This music could have been a Quick Foxtrot now known as a Quickstep
    which is played at from say 48 to 52 bars per minute.
    Enrique Rodriguez amongst others (Carabelli for instance who played jazz too)
    played and recorded (slow) foxtrots as we know them now like Se Val En Tren and
    Mujeres Feas. Both good to dance milonga.
  12. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    The Fox Trot / Charleston connection was news to me. So I did a little checking...
    According to one source, this appears to have happened in England. Is that correct?

    It makes me somewhat crazy when a potential partner tells me, that song is an X (dance), when I can clearly do Y to it.

    "The English developed from the original Charleston a progressive dance without kicks and made a mixture with the above mentioned fast foxtrot the called this dance "the Quicktime Foxtrot and Charleston".

  13. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Again from Victor Sylvester:
    In 1925 there was a further revival of interest in the Tango
    and a big competition with a motor-car as first prize
    was featured at the Empress Rooms in the Autumn.

    It was in this same year that saw the beginning of the
    Charleston craze. The Midnight Follies had introduced the rhythm,
    but it was Mills and Bobbie Sielle, fresh from a trip through the States,
    introduced teachers to its ballroom possibilities, and from then onwards
    for nearly two seasons the Charleston carried all before it.

    Victor Sylvester is an interesting and valid authoritative source, for instance:
    . . . but my partner and I were the first among the post-war English
    dancers to master the full Natural Turn and introduce it into the Waltz
    at the first World Championships ever held in London, which we were
    very proud to win.

    That was in December 1922, and on that day the modern Waltz -
    as it is danced by so many professional couples today - was born.

    Unlike us - Victor Silvester was there!
    Here he is quoting the proceedings of the first Dancing Times
    Informal Conference in 1920, this mainly considering the Foxtrot
    which by this time was energetically played at 34 to 42 bars per minute:
    The teachers agreed:
    To do their very best to stamp out freak steps in the ballroom,
    particularly dips and steps in which the feet are raised off the ground,
    and also side steps and pauses which impede the progress of those
    who may be following.

    Ninety years later it's still relevant to Argentine Tango!
  14. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    from Wikipedia
    (with referenced contributions from yours truly)

    Developed in African-American communities in the United States, the Charleston became a popular dance craze in the wider international community during the 1920s. Despite its origins, the Charleston is most frequently associated with white flappers and the speakeasy. Here, these young women would dance alone or together as a way of mocking the "drys," or citizens who supported the Prohibition amendment, as the Charleston was then considered quite immoral and provocative.

    While the Charleston as a dance probably came from the "star" or challenge dances that were all part of the Black American dance called Juba, the particular sequence of steps which appeared in Runnin' Wild were probably newly devised for popular appeal.[2] "At first, the step started off with a simple twisting of the feet, to rhythm in a lazy sort of way. [This could well be the Jay-Bird.] When the dance hit Harlem, a new version was added. It became a fast kicking step, kicking the feet, both forward and backward and later done with a tap." Further changes were undoubtedly made before the dance was put on stage.[3] In the words of Harold Courlander, while the Charleston had some characteristics of traditional Negro dance, it "was a synthetic creation, a newly-devised conglomerate tailored for wide spread popular appeal." Although the step known as "Jay-Bird", and other specific movement sequences are of Afro-American origin, no record of the Charleston being performed on the plantation has been discovered.[2]
    Although it achieved popularity when the song "Charleston", sung by Elisabeth Welch, was added in the production Runnin' Wild, the dance itself was first introduced in Irving C. Miller's Liza in the spring of 1923.[4][5]
    The characteristic Charleston beat, which Johnson said he first heard from Charleston dockworkers, incorporates the clave rhythm and was considered by composer and critic Gunther Schuller to be synonymous with the Habanera, and the Spanish Tinge.[6]
    And, HEY! Habanera! so it's related to AT! LOL
  15. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Here is a dance ostensibly invented to cope with the fast Charleston
    rhythms in the overcrowded conditions of the ballroom on Balboa Island

    Extracts from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balboa_(dance)

    Balboa is a form of swing dance that started as early as 1915 and
    gained in popularity in the 1930s and 1940s. It is danced primarily
    in close embrace, and is led with a full body connection.
    The art of Balboa is the subtle communication between the lead
    and follow, like weight shifts, that most viewers cannot see.
    As a result, Balboa is considered more of a "dancer's dance"
    than a "spectator's dance".

    sometimes referred today as "Pure Bal;"
    dancers stay in close embrace for almost the entire time,
    their torsos touching, doing variations based on footwork,
    turning as a couple and moving as a couple.

    Bal-swing: originally known as just "Swing" or sometimes
    "Randy Swing" in newspaper articles of the time; Bal-Swing
    is an eccentric dance unlike Balboa, which allows for improvisation.
    This dance style came from Charleston, and its earliest known use
    was a contest in Venice Beach in 1932.

    Balboa came from Southern California during the 20's and increased in
    popularity until World War II. Balboa is named for the Balboa Peninsula
    in Newport Beach, California, where the dance was invented.[1]

    Some original Balboa dancers' quotes:
    "We can't tell you how to dance Balboa, but we can tell you
    when you are not dancing Balboa."

    "As soon as you start attracting attention to yourself,
    you [are] not doing Balboa anymore"

    And full circle - surely Balboa was influenced by AT:

    Body position
    The dancers stand close, touching upper chest.
    This makes communication with body language very easy.
    The man's right front torso (rib cage) touches the woman's center
    front torso (rib cage). They are offset by about 1/4 of their body width,
    but primarily facing square to each other's shoulders.
    Unlike in other swing dances, the balboa follower often dances
    in heels to get the proper "forward" connection.
    The follower should still have her own weight (if the lead backed up
    she would stand on her own), but it should be aligned over the balls
    of her feet.
  16. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Yes. A small community of "close embrace" AT dancers had immigrated to Balboa when vocalists started singing to tango music. This inspired the dancers in California to dance close to each other and lead/follow with their bodies and keep their feet under them, none of which had occurred to them previously.

    OK. I made all of that up. It isn't true.
    (or... IS it?)

    Offf. Now I have to look more closely at that wiki article, which has very close to zero references. (except the ones from the Heaton text(s) which came from me)
  17. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    No, the only Rodriguez´ scores I own are his Cumpasita version.

    But I found the original disc label of the Carabelli version of Japonesita at 0:40 in this vid:


    A label of Noches de Ungaria by Rodriguez

    and Cantar Gitano
  18. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Excellent summary, may I add, that early Fox and Charleston both were danced to ragtime music. Why then is Charlestion exclusively listed as a swing dance?
  19. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Ragtime (alternately spelled rag-time)[1] is an original musical genre which enjoyed its peak popularity between 1897 and 1918.[2] Its main characteristic trait is its syncopated, or "ragged," rhythm.[2]

    Ragtime fell out of favor as jazz claimed the public's imagination after 1917,

    Rather than Ragtime, I would associate Charelston with the "Hot Jazz" of the "Jazz Era" "Roaring 20s".

    Hot Jazz, also referred to as Dixieland music,got its name from its blazing tempos and fiery improvisations. It originated in New Orleans in the early 1900s, but ’s early bands helped spread hot jazz’ blend of ragtime, blues, and brass band marches to Chicago and New York. Hot jazz remained popular until a surge in swing bands in the 1930s (that would be 1935 1936 when Benny Goodman hit it big) pushed hot jazz groups out of the clubs. (and actually, most jazz bands had settled into an "unhot" type of music. Goodman's swing appealed to a largely young audience)

    Louis Armstrong, according to W.C. Handy "Father of the Blues", said that swing was the same thing as ragtime.
    During a nationwide broadcast of the Bing Crosby (radio) Show [2] Crosby said, "We have as our guest the master of swing and I'm going to get him to tell you what swing music is." He asked Louis to explain it. Louis said, "Ah, swing, well, we used to call it ragtime, then blues–then jazz. Now, it's swing. White folks yo'all sho is a mess. Swing!"[3]
    There are of course very real differences in ragtime, blues, and swing, but the underlying variation of timing in how notes and phrases are, I think, what Armstrong was referring to.

    Charleston persisted into the Swing Era, and Charleston steps were incorporated into Lindy Hop.

    Haven't researched the music of Fox Trot well enough to comment on that.

    So, given that decades are invovled here, most people have a tendency to sum things up. Sort of like how it works with Tango.

    And, given the prominence of Fox Trot on those labels, I guess they aren't Argentine Tangos at all!!!

    Kidding, of course.
    The recording industry isn't there as a hobby. Things have to be organized so people can find what they want, and purchase it.
  20. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Re: Quick-Tango-Doble

    found some interesting words about Milonga steps to FoxTrot music:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz6F9U5V7W0 from 4:58 on


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