Tango Argentino > [RANT] Photographers

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Gssh, Jan 28, 2011.

  1. rain_dog

    rain_dog Active Member

    I don't think this is quite correct. The law is complicated and varies by location, but my understanding (google 'danheller model-release-primer' - can't post the URL) is that model releases are required for commercial publication, and the requirement is for the publisher, not the photographer. The photographer is free to sell the photograph to whomever, but if it's published commercially, the publisher would need to get model releases.

    So the photographer can take a photograph, put it on her website, hang it in her gallery, sell prints made from the photograph, and even sell it to a newspaper for publication (journalism exemption) all without a model release. But, for instance, Comme Il Faut can't use the photograph to advertise without one.
  2. jantango

    jantango Active Member


    This is an example of someone filming in the milonga for business purposes. He was not there to dance, only to film for his youtube site, and then leave. I don't know whether or not he spoke with Celia Blanco.

    When he arrived at my corner of the room and pointed the camera at me, I waved my finger at him. You'll see me doing so in the video. I didn't know who he is nor why he was filming.

    The video will give those of you who don't plan to visit BsAs an idea of the neighorhood, the milonga, and the dancing on Sunday at Lo de Celia Tango Club (my second home for ten years).
  3. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    Sorry, I didn't see that. Where was it that you flipped him the finger?
  4. jantango

    jantango Active Member

    I indicated "no, no" that I didn't want to be filmed. It's in the video.

    Later I viewed the website and see that it's a business. He was probably the guy sent out to film in the milongas so they could offer their tour services for 60 DOLLARS A NIGHT (240 pesos) for one person to one milonga. That's ridiculous, but there will be people who will pay for it. He was hired because he has a digital camera, but he had absolutely no interest in what he was filming. He was there to record. Even the way he held the camera without watching what he was filming was odd.
  5. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    What do people get for this money, what kind of service?
  6. jantango

    jantango Active Member

    The website http://www.latidobuenosaires.com/milongatourbuenosairestango.html details their milonga services: transportation to and from the milonga, a tango class, and entrance to a milonga. The total cost for this is variable depending on where you live, who is teaching the class, etc., but it's not worth 60 dollars unless they guarantee a tanda with a milonguero or milonguera.

    The same page includes videos of the milongas so that clients can select the milonga of their choice.

    You and I know that we can get a bus or subte to Lo de Celia for 1.25, pay the 20-peso entrada, have a drink for 8 pesos, and take a taxi home for less than the service charges.
  7. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    Wow, and to think that I did that for free for a friend... well, she paid her own entrance, and for the taxi back home. :)
  8. Madahlia

    Madahlia Member

    I found this video fascinating and informative, which undermines my arguments against filming, of course.

    If I was planning a visit to Lo de Celia, this would answer many questions, such as the layout of the room, what to wear (i.e. normal stuff) the degree of formality, the dance expectations and the general atmosphere.

    Watch out for Jantango wagging her finger very strictly at the left of the screen at about 9:20. I wanted to watch what happened at the end of the tanda to see if any obvious cabaceoing was going on. There's a guy in a blue shirt who walks over to a lady diagonally opposite him on the LH corner of the screen - he just seemed to walk over and offer his hand in a normal, non-mysterious kind of way - I think it was too far from his seat to have been able to make eye contact before he got up and started walking.
  9. Joe

    Joe Well-Known Member

    Does a Model Release apply to countries other than the USA?
  10. ant

    ant Member

    Many organisers cover this in their terms and conditions of entry. Or is this not a valid way of covering the point because each person has to give individual permission?
  11. DL

    DL Well-Known Member

    No it doesn't.

    The fact that people find it useful/enjoyable to see photos/videos, and the fact that some people enjoy/don't mind being recorded, don't change the fact that some people very much do mind being recorded (particularly without permission and for commercial purposes).
  12. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure of what you are asking.

    If you mean. "do you need a model release if you are photographing in other countries?" then I don't know the answer. In many countries it is considered extremely rude to photograph someone even on the street without permission. Whether or not it is a violation of anyone's rights to share profit to do so, I don't know.

    Most of the photographers I know who have traveled extensively (and there was a recent show here of 4 people who between them have travel 95% of the world) always ask. If approaching the person might alter significantly the effect they want, they might take the picture then show it to the subject (ah, the wonders of the digital age) or ask permission then take a few more in addition to the one they were trying to get all along. (I wish I had done this in San Telmo when I wanted a picture of a guy I bought artwork from.. he was very happy to oblidge, but I wanted a picture of him working on the unfinished piece on his board. He would NOT stop smiling at the camera and "posing" :))

    Even photojournalists often ask permission, and some of the most iconic photos were taken only after permission was obtained. Serious travel photographers educate themselves on the cultural expectations, patterns and laws of the countries they visit. The rules and cultural practices in the US concerning what you can photograph are often more lax than other countries, not less.

    Generally speaking, things like street performances are exempt because they are have a reasonable expectation of being photographed (especially by tourists). The whole issue is usually centered around whether or not the subject should have an expectation of being photographed. Therefore, photography related to news gathering or a newsworthy event and it's environs is usually exempt as well. The other issue is often related to whether the subject has an expectation of privacy. being on the street (in the US) typically negates that expectation.

    Things also get very tricky when minors are involved regardless of venue.

    However, if you are asking if a photo taken in the states can be used abroad without a model release, then the answer is still No. Keep in mind however, that it is up to the subject to find out and bring suit. Usually this would be a civil suit. (not a criminal matter) It's also a different matter from someone violating the photographer's copyright by using or distributing the photo.
  13. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    As applies in the US:

    I believe that if the terms and conditions of entry are posted or made known, it covers it. I'm not sure what happens if the terms are "implied" or if they have it in the by-laws somewhere, but someone would have to do serious impractical research to find out they agreed to those terms when they entered.

    Keep in mind though, that we are still talking about a Civil case, not a criminal one (after a certain level of damage, it becomes a felony, but we are hardly discussing anything on that level). As annoying as it might be to find out there are some photos of you dancing badly on someone's Flickr stream or tango organizer's website, to go beyond requesting that the photo be removed is hardly worth it. You'd have to prove some sort of actual damage from the publication of the photo when there is no financial stake involved.

    Everyone and their cousin has a pocket Point-n-shoot camera these days. You're going to be on the web somewhere (must make it quite scary for people in the Witness Protection Program) Serious photographers don't want to take a chance by having a shot picked up by Getty and then be unusable ("stock" agencies are very strict about model releases due to the level of distribution of the image) exhibited in a show (and asked to take it down) or sold.

    However, the 3 dozen people at the milonga with their modern day equivalents of the "instamatic" aren't going to be doing these things. It's become common for people to take a camera to a milonga and at least photograph friends in groups smiling for the camera. Therefore, by attending a milonga, you have a reasonable expectation of ending up in someone's photo, even if you're just in the background. You don't have a lot of recourse with the "average joe" who posts your picture to facebook or flickr, other than to request it's removal. The pro photographers and anyone who financially profits from the photo.. that's a different story (and where the model release comes in)
  14. nucat78

    nucat78 Active Member

    The same guy flashed me full in the face in quickstep last night. I was going to go back and coldcock the sucker but DP stopped me. Meh, no point getting hauled up on A&B charges... Dance rage - what a concept. LOL!
  15. Joe

    Joe Well-Known Member

    LOL...took me a moment to figure out what you meant by "flashed." :D
  16. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    can somebody translate this please?
  17. Madahlia

    Madahlia Member

    It's either extremely lewd or extremely violent!
  18. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I believe it's choice: B, violent.

    He was going to punch the guy out, but his partner got him to reconsider, as he realized that getting arrested for Assault & Battery probably wasn't the best way to handle to situation.
  19. newbie

    newbie Well-Known Member

    Guys blinds him with flash.
    He wants kick the guy.
    Partner says don't.
    Inner voice says don't, you'll be sued.
    He thinks, damn by good'ol days in BsAs I'd knife guy's throat.
  20. Madahlia

    Madahlia Member

    A&B=GBH in British. Grievous Bodily Harm. Rather quaint in either language.

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