Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by wadpro, Oct 4, 2009.
And the other thing is that in the long run, whether one is right or wrong, one can still make the first move to repair the damage.
I got into a ugly scene once with someone at a practica. I thought his attitude was unacceptable and I said something nasty to him and walked off the dance floor.
When I got home, I felt so bad about my behavior that I immediately emailed him an apology for my behavior. I didn't defer or grovel and say he was correct in our discussion or that his behavior was ok... I merely apologized for mine because no matter what he was saying or doing, I violated MY OWN code of behavior by being rude and walking off.
To me there is NEVER an excuse for that. No matter what the circumstances are, at a social dance, there is no excuse to be rude to someone, especially if you are dancing with them. (actually, I'm not sure there is ANY circumstance where being rude can be justified)
As it turned out, our apologies crossed in the air over the internet because he had also emailed me as soon as he got home.
I think my previous post will show I can't totally agree with this. I have known people who (and have also myself) realized they were out of line in their behavior (if not their opinion which started the conflict) and sought to fix it.
Who was this directed at? I edit my posts all the time because I see the typos after I post them. I rarely change the meaning of the post
No, I missed a few thoughtful words in your response that was omitted. For OP that is, re. his response. How then can he know for the next time...if your "empathy" basically spells it out to him that what he did was correct. Hmm?
Again... missing the point. The only "correct" is your opinion... that you apply to his, or your own, actions.
I agree. To react from the gut is human. To apologize later is civilized.
Yes, of course, even though many would consider the lady's action acceptable (provided she declined politely), I don't think anybody argue that he had the right to be upset and not wanting to dance with her after. Several people noted that at dances one could use a different approach and attitude more productively, but feelings are feelings.
However, when she came and asked, instead of answering "I appreciate your asking, but sorry, I am afraid I don't feel like dancing right now" he told her where she should go and what to do.
And telling grown ups by another grown up where to go and what to do is considered very rude in most cultures. So, I can see why that kind of reaction would tick people quite a bit.
The real story
What really happened:
Two beautiful ladies sitting engaged in a conversation. A gentleman approaches and as he opens his mouth to ask one of the lady’s to dance he emits a breath odor similar to the nuclear meltdown at Chinoble.
Taken by surprise the lady refuses the offer as her eyes tear up from the foul odor and politely gives him the excuse “sorry we’re having a conversation perhaps later”
He being a man with a rather large EGO stomps off mad.
The lady being a lady takes pity on the dental deficient slob gulps down a few “Altoids” the curiously strong mint and searches the room for the poor halitosis ridden man.
With all the strength she could muster and after breathing in the biggest breath of fresh air she could she approached him and asked him to dance only to be rejected.
Greatly relieved she returns to her table where she and her friends have a few laughs and a new story to tell about how she narrowly avoided a dance with “Dragon Breath” the new name they have given the pathetic bastard.
What a happy ending for everyone involved.
It seems to me that it was not his actions with the woman or even the his OP but his actions after he saw that the early posts did not vindicate his actions that caused the response.
If you consider this was an incident that was playing on his mind for three months and he has then asked others for their opinion.
Why ask others for their opinion, which IMO was initially given in a reasonable and considered manner, when you you are not prepared to accept that opinion?
In the OP's defence, I don't think he has mentioned anything about not wanting a negative response, seeking validation etc. I think it was more so the response of others with their blood baying accusations and requests for more empathy. Everything else that you stated, I am in total agreement.
or perhaps it was this...
We could spin it and demonize anyone in the story if we felt like it... And I am sure neither interpretation is accurate. His description of the incident is so bland and without malice it is hard to believe the amount of rebuke he received over it.
You see the quotes either side of the three words? Yeah? Means just that. It is a quotation from something that was previously made by another. In order for me to go on the descriptive attack of this woman then perhaps the OP should've painted her in a darker picture...sayyyy....she went up to him and barked at him, accusing him of all sorts degradations before demanding that he danced with her. I can only go by what has been written...and respond accordingly. And no, I feel no empathy whatsoever for rudeness. And worse...a big fat ego to boot.
Non. He neither painted a dark picture of her NOR himself. The posters here painted a dark picture of his actions.
Et je cite...what was written
Seems pretty unemotional... to me. Could even be argued that he wished her well in her evening. I see fail to see rudeness or "big fat ego" in his words.
DB at no time and intentionally so have I used wit or sarcasm in relation to your earlier posts.
At no time in wadpro's posts did he mention the delivery from the lady in question, just the content. You however keep commenting on some theoretical delivery. This observation is not meant to be wit but a truthful observation of the facts.
DB I have read your post and quoted the relevant section of your earliest post that I have continued to refer to but you have not yet answered. Again this is not meant to be wit but a guenuine attempt to understand the factual background to that post.
Yeah then my question to the OP would be this: in exactly manner of tone did you say this:
If in fact you were smiling affectionately when it was delivered then I shall be the first to heap my apologies upon you. But I will add, OP, that it is okay for one to be seen chatting to another in a milonga. Maybe someone, one day, will come up with an original concept of a mute milonga that will suit you but until such time...
I like reading this thread. Seriously. We are all aware of it as we do it... embellishing the story to be pro OP or pro lady. We are not doing it to be vicious, nor are we unaware of it as we do it, but we are pulling from our own experiences, or creating theoretical situations, to fill in the gaps or to justify a stance. For me, this is like an exercise in how people, in real life situations, form their own opinions, sometimes very strong opinions, based on very little fact but a lot on personal opinion and imagination. I've seen dancers take this type of thinking to extremes and seriously get their knickers in a bunch over absolutely nothing!
But to some of us that part of his post that he did not invite a response to was the part that warranted the most comment.
I think most people took the same view as me to the OP being something like
OK something happened three months ago that is still biting away in his mind. He gave all the relevant facts and asked others their view. Up to there a true reflection of past actions and asking others what they felt.
As I keep saying to begin with the responses were fair and constructive. However when the comment are not in agreement with his, why not reflect on those comments rather than carry on with the original line?
The only conclusion a reasonable person can come to is that he felt that his actions to the lady afterwards were right and this is with hindsight and three months to reflect. At that point I believe it is reasonable for people to give there actual view on the whole incident and quite honestly saying it is "baying for blood" is not reasonable, especially when you have agreed to the general message being conveyed.
but that was my point too, as i was playing devils advocaat. and i think db said something similar and Kurosawa made a it where 5 people see the same thing and all have different versions of what they saw.
To the OP:
Hi, I'm a little late on this one, but I thought I might add my 2 cents. Without knowing the exact circumstances regarding your situation, maybe it's best you decide for yourself what was the correct action. But to give you a framework for your decision, consider this:
Mario's recent post in the BsAs thread about tango culture reminded me of this story. When my teacher first tried to drag me out to a Milonga, I told her I was too nervous to dance. She said that was fine, but I should still come to see it. She said back home (BsAs) a milonga is a community event; some people come to eat, talk with friends, and watch the dancers. Sometimes to do all of the above, and dance a couple times during the evening. Now the key word it seems is "community". Community is about social connection, and connection is what we are really striving for in tango, is it not? So when judging whether a particular action is right or wrong, why not think of it in terms of which of your actions and which of hers made your connection to the community and to each other stronger or weaker.
Does that make sense? Or am I just babbling nonsense?
Separate names with a comma.