Ballroom Dance > slow fox step timing

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by albatr0s, May 22, 2016.

  1. albatr0s

    albatr0s Member

    Let's take feather step as an example, men's steps.
    We could see it as follows:
    - beat 1: RF FWD
    - beat 2: LF passes RF
    - beat 3: LF FWD
    - beat 4: RF FWD
    Now, the point is: what does it mean in practice?
    I mean, when RF o LF actually start moving? and when are they actually in place?

    First instance, step at beat 4 could be delayed: someone teaches that at beat 4 RF is just passing LF, others are still in place. Besides, this as consequences on step 1 that might be delayed too or, alternatively, be faster to compensate. An advantage of this technique is much control individually and as a couple, thus resulting in a fluid motion.

    Second instance: first beat: is RF still moving FWD at the end of the beat or is it already in place and, in this latter case, is toe down or still up?
    Thank you
    Alb
     
  2. albatr0s

    albatr0s Member

    * others that is already in place
    ** besides this has consequences
    (sorry)
     
  3. snapdancer

    snapdancer Well-Known Member

    A RF step begins with the body weight fully collected on the LF and ends when the weight is fully collected on the RF. Kind of hard to continue moving your RF while you have your weight on it. Also hard to have the full body weight on the RF with the toe of the right foot up.

    The timing you give is all wrong for foxtrot. The timing is SQQS, while you have given it as QQQQ.

    I'm puzzled how you can be teaching without knowing this. Do you have a copy of the "gray book" (Alex Moore's "The Ballroom Technique" from the ISTD) and understand its notation?
     
  4. albatr0s

    albatr0s Member

    I use SQQ, my question is about some other people teach. And these other people (check video online) were high level champions.
     
  5. Dr Dance

    Dr Dance Well-Known Member

    Albatros, that's not the way that I learned it. The feather (or the first three steps of the feather) are SQQ, not QSQ. The first slow takes two full beats, not one.

    Beat one: Man steps forward with right foot to take partial weight on heel.
    Beat two: Man fully commits to right foot.
    Beat three: Man steps with left foot.
    Beat four: Man steps with right foot with transition for next step.

    (For this video, he adds a slow in front with the man's left foot.)



    Watch this couple carefully. He correctly takes two full beats for the slow.

     
    Last edited: May 22, 2016
  6. albatr0s

    albatr0s Member

    yes, I agree, but I saw someone teaching something closer to QSQ; well, let's say, a "masked" QSQ :)
     
  7. albatr0s

    albatr0s Member

    I remind you that steps end at the &. This means that when, at beat 4, one foot passes the other we are still on time, provided that at 4&, step is finished.
    At least, this is the interpretation of what I saw.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2016
  8. snapdancer

    snapdancer Well-Known Member

    English is not your first language, is it? To "remind" someone is to tell him something he already knew but had forgotten. I've never known that "steps end at the &". What is your background? What are your credentials for teaching?
     
  9. albatr0s

    albatr0s Member

    My English is not my first language, yes, what then? Death penalty?
     
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  10. snapdancer

    snapdancer Well-Known Member

    No, just trying to figure out where you're coming from.

    Now that I've answered your question, perhaps you could answer the ones I asked. Both in #3 and #8 above.
     
  11. Dr Dance

    Dr Dance Well-Known Member

    I do concede that advanced dancers of fox trot can "borrow" from the slow to add to both quicks. This creates a hover effect for the slightly enlarged quicks. This also creates the illusion of dancing "three equal steps" like waltz. But I believe that beginners and intermediates need to focus on "filling the slow" rather than using any "masking steps." Strictly speaking, QSQ is faulty technique.
     
  12. albatr0s

    albatr0s Member

    snapdancers, even I could answer and probably surprise you, I will not. I am not here for being judged by the first snapdancer who has nothing else to do.
     
  13. Dr Dance

    Dr Dance Well-Known Member

    Of course not! Well... no... maybe.

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. albatr0s

    albatr0s Member

    thanks, dr dance, indeed this is what I also do think. Foxtrot is just an example, but the same thing happens in Waltz. If one checks, for example, some chasse, or impetus turns, sees that 3 is very delayed and when couples takes the 3, music is almost at 1 beat.
    On the other hand, one of the principles for judges is " to be with all the weight on the foot at that beat". In other words, we have theory and we have interpretation... and we might have judges who prefer the first one and others who prefer the second. From this, my question. Thanks for answering. :)
     
  15. vit

    vit Active Member

    It's actually an interesting question. I wanted to start a thread like this a while ago, after I was corrected by my last teacher that I was "behind the time" (after I was corrected by my previous teacher and also several years ago by my latin teacher). Watching some older teaching videos (both latin and standard) and current situation, it looks like things also changed a bit since I started dancing mid 80s and moved slightly "forward" (+ it's possible that there were some misunderstandings among my first teachers back then or my understanding of the timing back then). Talking about situation in Europe / WDSF

    And yes, beginning and end of the step is defined even in Alex Moore book, but not how that is aligned with actual beats. Even latest WDSF books leave this subject a bit undefined

    So my latest teacher's interpretation is that center balance positions (as defined in WDSF book) in feather step are approximately aligned with beats 2, 3 and 4. So it's the moment in the middle of weight transfer, when both feet have half weight. I suppose this is only one of possible explanations of the timing and these things are not exact - depends on what is before and after and also there are slight individual differences even among top level dancers
     
    Angel HI likes this.
  16. vit

    vit Active Member

    Yes, that was my "old understanding" of the rhythm which was recently corrected
     
  17. albatr0s

    albatr0s Member

    Thanks, Vit. Could you explain better what you mean in the above message about your old understanding?
    :)
    Albatr0s
     
  18. vit

    vit Active Member

    That earlier when I was dancing open impetus, I was only somewhere at 1/2 or maybe 3/4 of the length of my step with LF into PP on the exact beat 3 (similar to what you said if I understood correctly) and that weight transfer to my LF occurred almost on next beat 1. According to my last teachers, it too much behind the time although back then (80s) it was a sign of "good musical interpretation" - at least in my country ...
     
  19. albatr0s

    albatr0s Member

    Well, I had lesson with two couples of recent world champions and both corrected me in the opposite way: they said I must feel to be behind the music. As far as the open impetus is concerned, at beat 3 my LF was receving weight but, when I look their dance, or when I dance with them, at beat 3 I am still rising.
    Same thing in foxtrot, they did teach me the same as above...
     
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  20. vit

    vit Active Member

    Quite possible - probably there are some differences here among teachers / regions / dancing organizations / points in time, so more opinions would be nice
     
    albatr0s likes this.

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