General Dance Discussion > So you think you can dance

Discussion in 'General Dance Discussion' started by Albanaich, Sep 12, 2009.

  1. Terpsichorean Clod

    Terpsichorean Clod Well-Known Member

    A typical dictionary definition is "alike in every way."

    So how are the styling, presentation, and technique identical in cha cha and waltz? :)
  2. Albanaich

    Albanaich New Member

    If you dance your dances with the same identical frame they will take on the same, identical look, that is presentation and style, even though what you do is completely different.

    If I paint the same subject in the style of the impressions the style will be completely different from if I painted it in the pre-raphealite style

    What are you finding difficult to grasp here?
  3. Terpsichorean Clod

    Terpsichorean Clod Well-Known Member

    If we assume identical frame leads to identical presentation and style, how are the frame and technique identical for cha cha and waltz? :)
  4. Albanaich

    Albanaich New Member

    Well they aren't, they shouldn't be, but some people make it that way because they don't change there frame and style.

    Slavik doesn't look like a Cuban doing the Cha Cha Cha because he uses the same frame and style to dance the Cha Cha Cha as he does to do the Argentine Tange - which is completely different to the frame and style in Argentina.

    What's the point you are trying to make?

    Or is this a game of semiotics
  5. Terpsichorean Clod

    Terpsichorean Clod Well-Known Member

    In that case if you were to describe the technique for cha cha and the technique for waltz, they would be identical or alike in every way. Could you please describe the technique? :)
  6. DancingMommy

    DancingMommy Active Member

    I'm sorry, but you had a sucky ballroom teacher if that's what you've taken away from the instruction you've had. What a pity.
  7. CANI

    CANI Active Member

    Hi Albanaich -

    I think I understand a bit about what you are saying. A few posts earlier you mentioned that once you had had some AT, and used the AT frame with a Ballroom waltz, it was a much more enjoyable experience for you.

    So, perhaps, the frame in ballroom waltz and the frame/posture in ballroom cha cha looks very 'rigid' or 'artificial' to you and that is perhaps why they all look the same. This reminds me of the very first time I saw two pros demonstrate a basic step in Viennese Waltz -- just in plain clothes, not fancy dress -- and I remember vividly my thought was "Yikes!! Why is her back contorted in that way?? It looks uncomfortable and unpleasant. And she isn't able to ever look at her partner -- it's like she's not acknowledging he exists. Why do this for the sake of appearances?" I kid you not -- it was my thought.

    However, now that I've had more than a year of ballroom under my belt, I've come to appreciate how everything -- the frame included -- makes for a much more enjoyable Waltz and Viennese Waltz. And that it isn't artificial or uncomfortable or for appearances, and that it is a very pleasant feeling. And the connection to your partner is there. It's amazing. In fact, I'm reminded of your statement earlier: "It's a glorious, unmatched feeling you are dancing like that, both working with each other to hit phrasing and the breaks -- its why I dance." And I feel the same way about the glorious, unmatched feeling – it just, right now, comes from things other than phrasing and the breaks. And even with dances like Cha Cha – the frame and posture and everything that may look artificial actually enables you to dance with your partner and communicate – and that, too, is an incredible feeling. I see the differences you are pointing out in the three dances versus the other three dances and I agree with Peaches that these dances are beautiful, each in their own way.

    I say if you enjoy dancing waltz with a frame modified from AT during a social -- go for it. Enjoy. Enjoyment is what dancing is all about. And it sounds like that glorious, unmatched feeling (I smile every time I think of it) is something you find in Lindy and WCS and AT. And that’s beautiful. And, it probably isn’t something you’d find, based on your description of your personal challenges, in ballroom, unless you put years and years in. And I’m reminded of Peaches statement “took the "Bugger all that for a lark" approach and high-tailed it away from anything remotely resembling a court shoe.”

    I think you’ve raised a number of interesting points in this thread – and while I like many of them and have certainly learned a lot from your contributions, I think the one I like the best is this one: A musician from their very first class is trying to all three (steps, doing the steps to a beat and interpreting the music), so please have a little patience and understand what is going on in their head. (emphasis mine). Acknowledging differences in the world, I wouldn’t be surprised to find another musical musician who has a different opinion, but I really like the patience and understanding part and the fact that people can have completely different experiences and thoughts in the one class based on their individual talents and background.
  8. DancingMommy

    DancingMommy Active Member

    And I really feel like I have to address this... Slavik doesn't speak (dance) for the entire dancesport community. Each dancer brings his/her own style/interpretation to the floor.

    Even though a dancer might be the "world champion", that doesn't make them the de facto style-du-jour to be emulated by every dancer from that point forward.
  9. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    nevermind that frame for latin and frame for standard are different ....they do have a different shape...:rolleyes:...

    I have been gone a while and am just now catching up to the thread and...imv...talking about dance is like talking about is a huge, mysterious enormous that each individual's personal truth about it is vastly personal and nonetheless true for them at that point in time...but wise people, imv, speak on things such as this with the proper humility for their finite, limited, albeit true to them, perspective on the subject...which is the only decent way to respect the passionate truths that others carry about the same takes their shoes off as they are on holy ground and takes care not to trample that which others hold dear...because not every deeply held personal truth is an absolute universal truth...though all of it is part of one divine concept from which all draw can speak one's truth without offending others if one cares to...for me, the better I get at the 19 ballroom dances I do, the more fluid and natrual I realize that they always were...I just wasn't ready to see that before...but also the more able I am to distinguish the very specific differences between them....

    as to Slavik...well ...the only constant to his dancing is how doggone yummy he is while doing it:cool:
  10. Terpsichorean Clod

    Terpsichorean Clod Well-Known Member

    After taking some west coast swing and Argentine tango classes, I've gotten some good ideas and inspiration for my ballroom. I'm glad you've had a similarly positive experience. :)
  11. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    and that is the real beauty of being open to what every type of dance has to offer;)
  12. etp777

    etp777 Active Member

    And then of course tango frame (ballroom, not AT) is another beast separate even from these two.
  13. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    Albanaich, what is it about the "original" cha cha that makes you call it original... that it is danced in the street? Because as far as cha cha being original... it was invented in NYC in a ballroom club...

    ps... I hope your dentist appt. was successful and not too painful.
  14. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    Lord YES! Just look at a latin dancer with no standard training get into closed position...! As well as looking at a standard dancer who breaks open and watch the world around them crumble as they try to hold their body differently and move with different pieces of muscles, articulating their legs and feet in a whole new way.

    Quite different, in everyway. And a non-trained ballroom dancer like the OP would have an incredibly difficult if not impossible time trying to see/understand the differences... as we have been shown. Probably as much as a non-swing or non-a.tango dancer would have trying to locate and understand the finer nuances of those dances as he is arguing for.
  15. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    Slavik looks like Slavik because he is Slavik. Now compare Slavik to David Hamilton and tell me that a Chacha looks like a Tango. You can compare an Apple to an Apple all you want but then to complain it doesn't look like a Banana is kind a hard argument to pull off.

    And before you get all in a twist just remember this video (as well as all of the ballroom that you keep showing) is a show performance for a large audience and National television... no one is trying to be authentic.
  16. DL

    DL Well-Known Member

    Well, we didn't see what those classes were like. But anyway it would seem that what was learned, misses some of the character of waltz, if "it's not bad when danced as AT" was indeed the take-home message.
  17. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    meh...I think it depends on how you are defining authenticity as well
  18. jennyisdancing

    jennyisdancing Active Member

    Agree...and why does 'authenticity' matter, anyway? It might be different if the performance is marketed specifically as such - for example, if I go to Hawaii and pay to see a 'traditional' hula performance, or go to Colonial Williamsburg and see a Virginia reel, then I might care about historical and cultural accuracy.

    Otherwise, dance is always evolving and there's nothing wrong with that. :)
  19. samina

    samina Well-Known Member

  20. DancingMommy

    DancingMommy Active Member

    True. True. I know that I have always strived - when I was teaching - to instill not only the character of the dance, but also a sense of ease and enjoyment for those learning. I'd be a right sucky teacher if when my students left the class, they couldn't at least dance two steps comfortably AND enjoy themselves while doing it. "Stiff" is not in my syllabus...

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