Tango Argentino > Some possibly confusing tango terms

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by plugger, Dec 10, 2010.

  1. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    It's a fair question. Ballroom (and to a lesser extent, Latin) and lots of other loosely related styles aren't improvisatory in character. We have to give beginners material to work on (and it has to be simple to start with - and that, at least, is also true of AT).

    "Yuk!" might be a personal response to the styles (or the method, it's hard to guess which - both, probably), but that's just your perception/experience of styles which are enduringly popular, and which give a very, very large number of people pleasure and fulfilment in their dancing. As an aside, most (obviously not all) of these people would shake their heads in bafflement, watching the goings-on at a milonga, and go away again, very relieved that no one had asked them to dance... ;)
  2. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    Latin, in either its indigenous format or the B/room styles, encompass as many ( maybe even more ) ground rules that will facilitate ease of passage .

    Ther is a common belief for e.g. , that Salsa is not encumbered with " rules ".. on the contrary ,ALL dance motion is..
  3. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    I wasn't suggesting otherwise. I meant that in comparison with AT, Ballroom (and Latin to a lesser extent) are NOT improvisatory styles of dance, and therefore require a structured approach to their teaching.

    Take a style like International Rumba: at a high level, you will see almost nothing that you could find between the pages of one of the standard texts (in which the 'rules' are defined), whereas in, say, Slow Foxtrot, you will see almost nothing that isn't.

    AT's practitioners usually defy any attempt to put AT into one or more boxes. This is ironical, of course, because the rest of us can see all too clearly how the dance is constructed from a stylised vocabulary of movements, and the dancers themselves spend a lot of time arguing with each other about the competing claims of these different styles (rather undermining their position in the process).
  4. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    I would agree that for show tango and more energetic neuvo it has relevance but for the standard Salon style of dancing at a Milonga, dancing to the music is by far the most relevant skill.[/QUOTE]

    No. Musicality without technique and good posture and toned muscles in core and legs is like herding cats...you could get a load of solists but no partner connection.

    by analagoy; Anyone can blow a saxophone but to get a good long sustained note requires training of the abdominal muscles

    @ JohnEm; I dont think milonguero requires more fitness than nuevo.
  5. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Looks like my understanding of "into the floor" is totally different from yours (the rest of the world) ?! (post 2 of this thread)

    By the way, the 1:40 thing (a doubling within a giro) in the following vid is lead upward.

  6. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    I didnt know we were discussing "higher " levels.. after all,the original Q was about a basic fundamental( and virtually the same at the lower end ) .

    And of course, at the higher dance levels of teaching, there are many nuances that do not readily translate into the standard technique book .

    And it should be made clear to the newcomer, those "books " , are essentially a guide for standardisation of acceptable material for specific levels of dance and exams . They really leave a lot to be desired beyond that approach .
  7. ant

    ant Member

    The post you refer to relates to the comment

    I would have thought that a person playing the saxophone would try to play it with musicality rather than making long sustained notes. Are you saying long sustained notes are more important than playing a proper tune?
  8. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    How toned would you say Chicho is or Tete was?
  9. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    I'd say - like me - under the blubber is a well deveolped musculature. :eek:

    I am sure I have great six-pack abs - but will never be able to see them...

    Spending time in the gym doing core, balance, strength, and cardio work has had results.:D - if not very visibly.
  10. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Yeah, I know what you mean. It's not easy for me to maintain this trim 280 pound physique.

  11. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    I would have thought that a person playing the saxophone would try to play it with musicality rather than making long sustained notes. Are you saying long sustained notes are more important than playing a proper tune?[/QUOTE]

    Its an Om question...

    Long notes are a basic exercise for the beginner ( and all other levels)

    It gives you breath control; then you have a better chance of playing a tune;
    you cant breathe between each note, so you learn how to conserve your breath and breath in at appropriate places; so you cant play musically with out fitness and technique
    and playing long notes is one exercise to improve this..

    like I said musicality is useless without technique and fitness.
  12. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    Chicho is fit he moves like a cat; so he's going to have far more muscle than I have because he's moving more mass around.

    I really couldnt give a monkeys about Tete. Is he still alive?
  13. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    I played saxophone in high school and sang in a choir in university (and studied opera). Imagine singing over an orchestra in an opera house and projecting your voice to the back rows. Takes considerable physical technique.

    And I won't comment on the stereotypical physique of an opera singer...;)
  14. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Concerning Chicho (I was lead by him): very well toned, and it feels like an submarine is going to overtake (or undertake) you!
  15. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    whereas a sax player just needs a black poloneck, a pair of shades and and a beret...;)
  16. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    "...I really couldnt give a monkeys about Tete. Is he still alive?[/quote]

    Tete died a few months ago.

    (What's going on with the quoting method)?
  17. Madahlia

    Madahlia Member

    Yes, but the problem had to be solved by physical training so whether the initial problem was lack or fitness or not the solution remained the same.

    How come then, that the degree of physical fitness correlates so closely with the degree of skill of the dancer? Why are there so few fat, unfit professional dancers? Having a trained, responsive body helps people to acquire the techniques that all of us, no matter how unambitious we are in our approach to dance, apparently value highly. Why else do we have these endless discussions about axis, walking, disassociation and other skills which we pretty much agree are the essential foundation of the dance?

    The truth is, that if you have a trained, responsive body that you are fully aware of, and in control of, these basic skills are easier to acquire. Of course, as a purely social dancer, you might feel you don't have to bother with basic skills - but I somehow don't think that is the case?

    One example -I dance with lots of men who frequently wobble and lose their axis because they don't have awareness of their core, which mars otherwise pleasant dances. I'm sure the same is true of followers. A bit of regular training outside the dancefloor would help to sort out that problem and make them better social dancers.

    I've been thinking about why the old milongueros can get away with still being considered maestros despite age and lack of condition and I think superb connection with the music and its interpretation has to be a major factor. A highly accurate, confident and subtle lead is probably another - but perhaps we could hear a bit more from someone who has actually danced with one? As someone has already mentioned, I suspect that they are still very aware of how to use their core muscles, despite general lack of condition.
  18. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

  19. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Cause even when we're sitting at our computers (and probably should be working) we can't stop thinking about Tango. Since we can't gossip about tango people, we have to talk about something! :D
  20. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Most of the leaders I dance with who wobble and lose their balance do so, not because of a lack of core conditioning, but because they have no idea how to rotate their upper body to walk outside partner (or to do anything else) and never got taught how to place their foot in relationship to the follower as they step.

    It usually goes like this: The leader wants to step outside to my right, but was never told to rotate his upper body toward mine to help him get there without breaking the connection. So he tries to keep his chest in front of mine but tips it over sideways so that his hips are next to mine to allow him to step beside me. Then because he is tipping and falling and worrying about stepping on me (these are almost always the same leaders who are afraid to step on me, so they end up trying to step around me) he places his foot so that it points away from me into the center of the room, which brings his right hip forward, thus blocking his connection to me even more. That makes it almost impossible for him to rotate his upper body towards mine... in fact, it pulls his upper body the OTHER way, so he has to tip sideways (right shoulder down) even more to try to connect his torso to mine at all.

    Eventually, he falls over.

    None of that says anything at all about the strength of his core... (in fact, someone with a strong core can twist up like this even more before they eventually fall over) It's just bad technique (or complete lack of technique) If I correct the leader and get him to use his body correctly, he may turn out to be completely stable.

    Putting your body in the wrong position because you don't know any better is not the same thing as not being ABLE to put/hold it in the correct position. I'd say that on a local level of hobbyists, the former is a bigger problem than the latter (at least here) One of the leaders who I have trouble connecting to for some reason is a martial artist... he's very strong but I always have trouble following him. A leader I like danced with a modern dance company... he's quite strong, but he sometimes gets nervous and the tension gives him stability problems (just like me, actually... I actually LOOK quite fit and have reasonably strong core muscles)

    I just not buying into the idea that people's problems are typically coming from lack of strength. It hasn't been my experience of people I know, male or female, leader or follower, that lack of strength is their biggest obstacle.

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