Salsa > Spins, turns and CBLs...

Discussion in 'Salsa' started by squirrel, Sep 28, 2004.

  1. squirrel

    squirrel New Member

    I started a new topic 'cause I didn't want to hijack the already existing one about double turns...

    So, my problem is this: by reading articles on various sites (especially Edie the Salsa Freak's website) I learned the woman should not rely on the man to do anything (except for aerials and the like). And that she should be able to do spins, turns and CBL all on her own! And since I saw her and other well-known follows do such things, I assume there is something one can learn, some technique, that would allow them to spin correctly.

    So far, I can doo double spins (on 567 - clockwise) and even 2 and 1/2 (also on 567 - clockwise), and I can do a CBL with double turns (on 567) and multiple turns...

    But I cannot do triple spins on 567 - clockwise nor double spins on 123 - counter clockwise. And I've been told that I should rely on the guy to do them and I should just let him spin me! I was :shock: !

    I mean, I thought I was suppose to do them myself! What about guys then? I saw some leads do 3 or 4 spins! Come on! Who's leading them, as leaders???

    So, my questions are:
    1. Is the follow supposed to be able to do such things alone or not?
    2. What is the proper underlying technique?

    And please don't tell me to buy tapes/CDs/DVDs and the like... I have Edie's Spins video and cannt watch it since it's NTSC coded and we use PAL/SECAM technology... as for the purchasing part, I can hardly afford to pay so much money for instructional tapes... given the low wages in Romania and the fact that I live alone and pay rent (among other stuff). So any explanation would be more than welcome! And I'll let you guys know how it went!

  2. hobrien

    hobrien New Member

    MMm, you may have openned a can of worms here.

    If you can do a double turn in a CBL, then you sound good to me.
    Doing a triple turn in the same time of corse is really hard, if not impossible. As far as I am concerned every extra turn would take about two more beats.

    Also you say a follower should be able to do a cbl on her won, well
    if I was dancing with a girl and I indicated that I wanted her to do a cbl,
    and it happened with her doing it on her own, I would feel...

    Hello are you dancing with me or what ?

    What I would rather her do is take a step back and then while going forward into the cbl, I am applying pressure to her back, and there is tension in my other arm this makes the cbl more dynamic and it feels wonderfull.

  3. squirrel

    squirrel New Member

    What I meant was for the girls to wait for the signal and do the moves... not backlead... of course, doing something on one's own is to be able to do it without a partner... to know the correct technique and sequence of steps and moves...
    I mean, when I teach, I always make girls rehearse the CBLs (any anything else that I teach, except for patterns) on their own! Not only with a partner... First I make sure they can do it physically and then I partner them up and teach about leading it! Of course, I mention they should do what the guy signals and not whatever crosses their minds! :)
  4. Cat

    Cat New Member

    I think that what squirrel refers to is when talking about the girl doing a CBL on her own is that the girl should keep her own balance while doing it, instead of grabbing the guy's hand for support.

    And also the guy should just give the signal for a turn instead of trying to turn her like spaghetti.

    And for triple/multiple spins, the technique to do them, independently of the timing, without losing balance after 2 1/2.
  5. Lita_rulez

    Lita_rulez New Member

    1. No, she is not "supposed to" be able to do such things. She can learn to do them, as well as a lead can learn them, but no one is "supposed to" pull out a quadruple spin on 3 beats.

    2. The proper technique is the same as for a double spin, you just add one (two, three, pick a number) revolution.

    OK, I know it sounds lame, but basicaly, that's all there is to it. Practice makes perfect they say, and so it should. I do practice mostly in the wasshrooms at work. Every time I go there, I spin going in, and I spin before I wash my hands, and I spin before I go out (and each and every time, I prey may CEO is not going to walk in on me falling off my fourth revolution.

    I used to only be able to pull out a basic turn. Now I can pull out a double in either direction on a 3 count, and go for four clockwise (3 counter clockwise is still a bit of a stretch) if I do not pay attention to the counts.

    My main problem is spotting. I can pull out a quadruple on a four count (I know, that's cheating ;) ) but it is blind luck if I do not fall flat on my knat or move 3 yards to the left or to the right (let alone end up facing my partner, it only happened once) because I do not spot.

    I am slowing down my spins, and learning to spot properly, after that you can speed them up. Actually, according to a few great spinner I have met (ever heard the name "Vasquez" anyone ?) spotting is what will allow you to go for that extra revolution. Someone even told me "I do not push harder for 10 spins than I do for 3 or 4, it's all in the technique. Spotting and using the shoulders gives me the extra momentum" :shock:

    So I am working on my third (proper) revolution... :wink:
  6. Cat

    Cat New Member

    Sorry squirrel, haven't seen your las post... :roll:
  7. squirrel

    squirrel New Member


    For instance, CBL is a walking turn... or travelling turn (whatever)... but someone told me that when doing it with a double turn, you don't do it travelling, you do it like a normal spin... or spot turn if you prefer... :?: :?
  8. Sabor

    Sabor New Member

    i agree with Lita..

    there are parts involved here, technique and ability.. and the mind/spirit behind them.. they all get better at different rates thru practice/experience and versatility

    in my case, as a lead, and because i've been dancing long, over time i have managed to spin with alot of speed and accuracy with my own inertia.. as for follows, its relative, some spin better, some worse and few can do it on their own with lightning ease.. depending on their background, style, ability and their lead to..

    its my impression, that as u advance more.. u rely less on the physical lead and mostly.. outside of tricks/dips etc.. all u need is an indication of direction and a slight toch/support here and there for seemingly flawless smooth execution.. its like weightlessness.. smoothness is very evident in such levels and the motion is not caused by the lead physically leading and the follow physically following.. but more of an interaction .. body direction.. indication with but a fingers touch.. and accordingly.. alot of freedom for creativity in dancing and play are resultantss.. basically.. u are relying less on the physical connection to add more on that of the mind/spirit due to more freedom and taking the connection to yet higher plane..

    look at it this way.. at these levels u are talking less.. but communicatiing much deeper .. u know .. and u are doing so on the back of super ability and creativity .. what u think of.. u can do with ease.. cause now u got the passion, mind, and body ability gained through experience and time to make it possible.. truelly a beautiful place to be at... :p

    well.. my 2 cents :D
  9. borikensalsero

    borikensalsero Moderator

    I'm with sabor here...

    I beileve that girls should not rely on a guy to do a double or a triple sipn, but if the move "calls" for more than that, well, then the guy is going to have to lead them, advance dancers seem to be the few who can spin a bunch of times with minimal force. I hardly ever spin anyone more then 3 times, the times that it happens more than that is because the girl is spin happy and she goes for 10 on her own. All I do is keep my hand there until its time to go; the rest she is doing on her own.

    IMHO, it all depends in what you are looking for, more than a handfull the lead will have to help to keep momentum and the spins going, less than that, the girl should be able to carry her own spins, but it isn't wrong to depend on the guy to do fewer than that if wish be. It is really a matter of what you prefer... I've danced with girls that like slower spins led by the lead, where as some others like a good initial lead and they take the spins from there.

    it is always good to rely on your own spinning technique, for what would happen if you relied on support, balance, from the lead and someone bumps him throwing him off balance... then you would end up flat on butt beside the lead.

    On traveling spins, to me, the word says it, (traveling spins), if you are going to spot-spin fine but the move stops being a traveling move. If the move is a travelling move, to me it says that the girls should keep moving in the led direction as she spins. I really don't like when I dance with a girl and I attempt traveling spins to find that I have to stop the move half way, for I will throw her off balance by asking her to move while she is thinking and doing spot-spins...

    With the cross body I like tension but I don't like to feel her total weight on my right hand, all I want is a simple (here we go) and have her go right into the CBL. All she should depend on the guy for here, is the signal to go, not to carry out the entire CBL for her. That is for new dancers...
  10. Lucretia

    Lucretia New Member

    I cannot contribute anything to this post. Not yet. But I will read it eagerly. This is one of my weak points

    This morning I dreamed I practiced double/triple spins again and again. First classical style on top on my toes and then salsa style with and without partner.

    (Perhaps my brain became damaged because of the Salsa Weekend :wink: :D Too much dance an too little of sleep. )

  11. salsaForfun

    salsaForfun New Member

    for triple turns(or any spins >3), it is better when the leader starts earlier than on 567.
  12. tsb

    tsb Well-Known Member

    i know edie & have taken classes with edie here in la, and i'm not so sure that's exactly what she means (although i am aware of the unhappiness in her past and how this has shaped her current philosophy about life in general).

    so far in the posts no one seems to have mentioned the prep, which is common for all dancers. when johnny vasquez whips around in one of his turns he really cranks it up in his prep and uncoils. and while i think you're visualizing free spins done entirely on momentum, i see some dancers utilizing what i describe as paddle turn technique; paddling around with their free foot.

    in general the best thing to do as one poster has already suggested is to deconstruct down to each basic technqiue and practice them slowly individually & build up speed.
  13. Sabor

    Sabor New Member

  14. Cat

    Cat New Member

    I understand that
    but my question is:
    Is there engouth time to do a CBL with a double turn as travelling turn on 5,6,7?
  15. Sabor

    Sabor New Member

    do u mean a spot double turn versus a travelling double turn Cat?

    if u do.. well.. yes there is always time .. it depends as was said before..

    way i see it, if u are doing a travelling double turn .. the turn starts a liitle earlier on the cross (early on the 5 if u are LA On 1).. and if its a spot double it starts a liitle later ie. near the end of the cross.. so either way.. u can end up facing your partner in linear fashion by the time the 8 hits
  16. borikensalsero

    borikensalsero Moderator

    Yes Cat,
    as sabor explains, the double turn comes after the intial lead plus one beat past in the CBL, as sabor mentions towards the end. So in a NY Style(on2) the girl would step foward on the 2 (leader has indicated CBL) then he begins the double spin on the 3 (first spin) and the 4 (second spin) using the 5 to either finish the spins, or have already stopped to step on the 6,7.
  17. Cat

    Cat New Member

    Sorry boriken, I didn't get that.... :headwall: :headwall: :oops: :oops:

    Please, could you please explain that again on1?
  18. borikensalsero

    borikensalsero Moderator

    I honestly don't think I'm faintly qualified to attempt and explanation on1, but.... here it goes anyways...

    My "educated" guess would be, the girl is led into the CBL on the one, then the leader uses the 2 and 3 to inside or outside double spin her, perhaps using the 4 to finsih, if not already set to step backwards (lady) on the 5. Now, all of that is me taking a guess at what an on1 person would do, I don't dance on1 so with my limited knowledge of, I attempted that explanation, of which I would really wait to see if someone who knows what their talking about assures us that this is correct. :?
  19. squirrel

    squirrel New Member

    I think boriken meant to say: start the CBL on 5, spin on 6 and 7, finish on 8, then go back on 1...

    the on1 I know starts 123 leader froward with left foot on 1

    I think boriken dances ET on 2.... meaning leader steps backwards on2 with right foot... correct me if I'm wrong, boriken... :oops:
  20. Danish Guy

    Danish Guy New Member

    Yes, that will fit with the on2 counting.

    Locally the leader can cheat a little to help the lady,
    by leading her forward on something like 4½ to give
    her a little more time to spin.
    But I’m not sure if this is common other places.

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