Tango Argentino > Styles anyone

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by tanjive, Feb 16, 2011.

  1. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    You start well and end badly. Most, if not all dances, evolve with and from
    their music, sometimes the music is itself influenced by the changing dance,
    ballroom tango music being a reasonably clear example.

    It isn't a hold, it's an embrace. The repertoire doesn't need to be poor,
    nor in fact does there need to be a repertoire at all.

    Different lead in today's idea of Tango de Salon maybe because of its
    perpetration Worldwide. Back in the day today's generally accepted
    interpretation was just one of many Tango Salon styles and coexistent
    with the then unnamed milonguero.

    You'd be surprised then how un-narrow a more rhythmic tango
    within the embrace can be. To make something of it is
    much more challenging to both partners than Nuevo.
    And, frankly, much more satisfying.

    But each to their own, just not on the same floor please.
    Nuevo is a different dance with different and conflicting dynamics.

    And I thought we were smoking the pipe of peace!!!

    NB. Thanks dchester.
  2. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Nice one. It's partly an indication of just how simple this dance seems
    yet can be such a complex interplay of the partners, provided those
    partners have the physicality and the senses to make it work.

    You, your partner and the music. The outsiders will never see it.
  3. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Well, you clearly just encountered a couple of rude people. Ignore, move on, I'd say.
  4. Nathan

    Nathan Member

    Huh. :kitty:

    Perhaps "alterations" would be a better term for them then, but the distinction is somewhat unclear to me. Under the standard definition of an embellishment/adornment, the follower (or less commonly, the leader) changes the quality of their own movement in some way to better fit the music. How is this any different from a leader changing the quality of his follower's movement, say, by interrupting it? Or a follower changing the quality of a leader's movement by slowing him down? The lead/follow relationship is so complicated, especially among high level dancers, that I don't feel like it can be broken down into these neat categories without losing important elements in the process.

    In my view, there are forward steps, backward steps, side steps, pivots, and the pause — everything else is derived from changing the quality of one of these somehow, or by adjusting one's body position when doing them. To get more technical, the gancho is not a step, but an embellished/altered (and laboriously set-up...) form of the pause. The boleo is also a pause, and the sacada is a step (front, back, or side) with a little bit of energy added to it.
  5. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Sounds about right.

    Because that's a led movement. It's not something the follower decides to do independently. It's quite an important difference.

    Similarly, because there's interaction involved.

    But that's the entire point - adornments are not part of the lead/follow relationship.

    I'd add "change of weight" also, and possibly an exception for a cross step, but yes, that seems 's about right.

    Sounds about right also.

    Umm, no. At least, not in my opinion. The gancho is not something that the follower should decide to do.

    In my opinion, the gancho is a follower step, which is interrupted by the leader's leg. This interruption creates a hook motion for the follower's leg.

    I could be wrong, of course.

    :confused: Again, the boleo is an interrupted step - but with the interruption being led by the leader's body, the follower's leg simply swings out in the direction of the step that's led.

    I really don't think there's a pause involved...

    The sacada is a normal step, but taken towards the partner body, so displacing the follower / leader's leg. I'm not sure that a sacada needs any extra energy...
  6. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    The differences are not insurmountable, so lets get on with smoking..
  7. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Thank you, Dave, for taking the time to say pretty much exactly what I was thinking. I agree completely. Nathan, I'm sorry, but I more-or-less completely disagree with how you look at things. (Which isn't to say that actual dancing would be a problem.)
  8. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    I cant see how you can say that either of these is a pause; a gancho and a boleo are both emphatic fast movements; hook and return, or rebound or displace. Pause implies slowing down and stopping.neither boleo or gancho nned this in fact the opposite; it creates a small amount of acceleration in the followers leg.
  9. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I'm not clear if you are trying to call me a [kitty], or what the point of the smilie is.

    By this definition, it would then follow that going from a quick step to a slow step would be an embellishment. In any case, I don't agree with this definition.

    I believe that it was Einstein who was said, if you can't explain it, then you don't understand it well enough.

    Generally speaking, there are foot movements, weight changes, and pivots. You appear to be defining a pause by the lack of weight changes by the follower, (since the leader certainly can take steps when leading a boleos). If I'm understanding you correctly (which I'm not at all sure), then a calesita would also be considered a pause by you.

    In any case, the most common definition of an embellishment is some additional foot movement(s) that the follower (or leader) chooses to add in, that fit in with what is being led. These additional foot movements are not typically (or by some definitions never) led.

    Ganchos and boleos are supposed to be led, so most people don't consider them to be embellishments, although some embellishments can be done with either of these moves (additional stuff that is not led). A sacada is quite different from any of this, as it's just a normal step with the only required difference being the location of the step. One may choose to use more energy when doing a sacada, but it's certainly not required.
  10. newbie

    newbie Well-Known Member

    While disagreeing with Nathan, I think the idea is you can, with adequate leading, freeze a boleo or a gancho and stay frozen for four beats and then resume dancing. And so, a not-frozen boleo can be seen a a very short pause. But you cannot freeze a sacada, it would become something else, a tomada or parada.
  11. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Exactly. Part of the definition of embellishments and adornments is that they do NOT affect the other partner at all. At least, that's the definition everyone I know goes by. Maybe in your community the accepted use of the terms is different, but judging from the replies here, I'd say you and/or your community is using the terms differently from most.

    It is possible for a leader to be aware that a follower is doing a specific embellishment and make use of it for his next led move, but that's a different scenario. For instance, if I do a right over left "beat" and quickly unwind to step back on my right while walking, even though I am trying to do it quietly, my partner will sometimes feel it and change his feet to put my backstep into an ocho. This means my little embellishment gets magnified by the fact that it now goes around instead of just straight back.

    However, the front beat I did was the embellishment. Doing an ocho afterwards is simply following his lead. His switch to an ocho is simply him changing feet (not embellishing) so that we are on the correct feet for an ocho. Without his quick weight change, we'd still be walking straight back.

    Sometimes I think he did this, not for visual effect, but to let me know that my embellishment was not as quiet in my body as it should be. Perhaps he even felt me tip to my left and was trying to save what he thought was a fall. But I still wouldn't call his change of lead an embellishment, even if it built off my embellishment.
  12. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member


    However, there is some trend now in alternative styling where the follower lifts her leg into a gancho position and holds it there. (didn't you post that video of someone doing that in a colgada, or was that someone else?)
  13. ant

    ant Member

    IMO its more likely to be his way of saying he liked what you was doing.
  14. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    more likely to be a step-over colgada- Homer and Christina do these...not a gancho
  15. Nathan

    Nathan Member

    I fail to see how any two people can be connected and independent at the same time. Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but even unled adornments done by a follower will affect the way I interpret the song and how I interact with her. How can it not? There is always feedback in both directions, so this distinction feels artificial/theoretical to me.

    I consider a change of weight to be a zero-point side step. The cross is not fundamentally any different from a collected position, except that it changes the quality of the movement that follows it.

    I didn't say it was unled. That would be quite unfortunate!

    A gancho can be performed by either the leader or the follower.

    If there is no step and no pivot, it's a pause. In the case of a boleo, there is either rotational or linear energy added to induce the free leg to move, but no matter how much that leg whips around, there is no step. However, if the energy is rotational, there will be a pivot, so it's not a pause. Sorry, I should have specified linear (front, back, or side) boleos.

    It doesn't have to be more energy, just different energy.

    I am a cat person. I was asserting my cat-like tendencies. :kitty:

    No, the calesita is a pivot.

    This was not what I meant, but yes, freezing a movement is always possible, and it leads to a pause. (Also, if a sacada becomes something else when frozen, I would hesitate to claim they are different movements at all. They would simply be variations in quality of the same basic step.)
  16. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    i think thats a poor definition of a pause; there's a lot of things I can lead without them becoming a step, (that is to say involving a weight change) but there's no pause in my movement.

    Thinking about it even my pauses are full of portent and latent energy; which the follower feels ;)
  17. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    and what about enchiladas: they dont involve a step or a pivot, but they're not pauses..;)
  18. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Um. Because they can? Just because I'm connected to my partner, doesn't mean she has no mind of her own or that she's not thinking about her own dancing.

    You're saying that if your partner tilts her ankle in a certain way as an adornment, that affects your dancing? Frankly, I don't believe that.

    The point is, again, adornments are, almost by definition, steps which are not led.

    That's it. I'm sticking with that definition, because that's what everyone else uses, and because it makes sense.

    Your definition of "adornment" does not make sense.

    Fair enough.

    Again, your definitions are... ummm... interesting, I'll give you that.

    I suspect we may have to disagree on a lot of these things, because we obviously have different definitions of basic concepts such as what a "pause" - and for that matter a "step" is.

    Re: sacadas:

    You seem to be moving the goalposts a bit here.

    You initially said:
    Are you still asserting that sacadas, ganchos and boleos are adornments?
  19. newbie

    newbie Well-Known Member

    Not so.
    I remember being invited by a (female) teacher in a milonga. She knew I was a beginner and somehow afraid to dance with her (why somehow? Panicky I was), and that if I felt disturbed by anything unexpected in her steps I would freeze on the dancefloor ("So sorry! Where did I go wrong?").
    After the dance we walked to her table. I wanted to thank her for not doing any adorno/embellishment but before I could speak a friend of hers congratulated her on all the nice, fluid and musical adornos/embellishments she had kept doing. I had felt nothing. And seen nothing either because of the close embrace.

    Now if the follower is not skilled enough to do adornos/embellishments without her partner noticing then yes she should refrain. "You know, embellishments are supposed to embellish", I once heard a female BsAs teacher say to a girl who insisted on doing a certain adorno any time she could, whatever the music may say or the leader may lead.
  20. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    i had a similar experience with Ines Moussavi, dancing a milonga, I was dancing simple, she was chucking in adornments all over the place, but never did she interfere with my leads and i just kept going. We even got a round of applause... well she did anyway..

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