Tango Argentino > Tango Championship DVD

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by DonDino, Oct 9, 2006.

  1. DonDino

    DonDino New Member

    I am not sure to what extent posts of commercial nature are allowed here, but I'll take my chances... :)

    I have just finished producing a DVD with clips from this year's Tango World Championship, that took place here in Buenos Aires last August.

    If you are interested, please message me for more details. There is a trailer you can watch, and I have listed it on eBay, but apparently I cannot put a link here until I've posted 15 messages to begin with.

    Thank you all,

  2. ruvi_55

    ruvi_55 New Member

    Tango DVD

    Saw your thread on dance forums. Please send info regarding the DVD you have maid.
    Greetings from Israel.
  3. fun

    fun New Member

    Dear beginning Argentine Tango (AT) dancers,

    I like watching some of these championship performances and they are fun for some people.

    However, I feel you should know that most people in this world love AT because it is not a competition dance!

    What makes AT unique and incredibly powerful is the sophisticated dance technique that has been developed over a 100 years - which allows for improvisation.

    In the stage category of these championships, however, most moves are choreographed and have little to do with the skills of a social dancer - the "back bone" of AT.

    In the salon category, people do improvise, however, they have to follow very restricting rules that force them to dance as if Tango stopped developing in the 1940 (the golden era). This is also a reason why most competitors in this category are in another age group.There has been considerable progress especially in the last 15 years of Tango technique which cannot even be used in the salon competition.

    Most people see tango as a dance for two not aimed or optimised for people watching. They regard the idea of a Tango competition as inapropriate as a yoga competition - which also exists :D

    Some say it is a pure money and marketing (of the lucky winners) business and the best social dancers never enter such competitions for one ore more of the above reasons. In fact few people in e.g. Europe even know about them.

    Just for your info.. if you are into shows etc.. it's better to stick to study ballroom dancing which is designed for that... and you can still do the AT comp ;)

    The only way to find out if someone is a good AT dancer is to close your eyes (if traffic allows) and dance with them.. and then you can also watch them for hours on the social dance floors..watch the good dancers dance -they don't need a stage or be compared with someone.

    So please buy those DVDs for entertainment and inspiration but remember that this is not what AT is or most dancers are striving for ;)
  4. Me

    Me New Member

    Fun, with utmost respect, I completely disagree with you. :)

    I completely disagree with statements that limit Argentine Tango to strictly something that is a mystical, magical, intimate experience between two people on a dance floor. It is an all encompassing dance that takes on many forms, some of which do not please all people. Why some people find fantasia distasteful is something I do not understand. The element of performing for other people has always been a part of tango, though people never seem to want to admit this. Why a choreographed piece, or a partially choreographed piece, should be dubbed 'fake Argentine' is beyond me. I find it disrespectful to the art, and disrespectful to the skilled dancers.

    Fabian Salas and Carolina del Rivero - love them or hate them, their fantasia is NOT CHOREOGRAPHED. Sure, they have combinations and moves they rehearse, but every dance they perform is different. They are but one (albeit prominent) example of the many fantasia and/or nuevo tango dancers who maintain the integrity of the dance while upping the ante on technical skill level.

    In regard to the DVD you are referring to - I found this DVD of particular interest, because the dancers who were just flinging themselves into acrobatics did NOT PLACE, whereas the fantasia dancers who actually danced with one another, won.
  5. fun

    fun New Member

    Hi "Me",

    Thanks for your opinion and thanks for pointing out that my post can be partly misunderstood - also by others I am sure - so let me clarify, please :)

    I did not say that a choreographed piece is "fake" Argentine Tango. I believe showdancers are gifted dancers and are usually very entertaining to watch as this is the goal of a show.

    Argentine show-tango is not fake it is just not what social AT dancers do and few are striving for ;)

    AT choreographies were born in the 30s when the dancers realised they don't need to restrict their dancing to leadable moves.

    A stage favours different moves anyway.. those which can be appreciated by someone sitting in the last row and not just your dance partner.

    So, yes showtango is real and has been around for nearly as long as social Argentine Tango.

    However, the passion and sensuality that really can take place in social Argentine Tango, when people like you and me improvise on a dance floor, can only be a fraction of that happening in a choreographed show.

    Who believes that anyone can create real passion and sensuality on demand when watched by a large audience and blinded by spotlights dancing the same seuence with the same partner and same music 101 times..?

    I also cannot see outstanding world class social dancers like Fabian Salas, Gustavo Naveira, Chicho, Pablo Inza, Homer Ladas and their partners ever enter a competition and rarely if ever choreograph a full dance as they know they are at their best when doing what they enjoy most: improvising.

    Actually, it would be really funny (or humiliating?) to see them "compete" and being ranked based on their entertainment value.. :)

    Happy dancing,


    PS: For those new to AT:
    "Tango Fantasia" is what happens on a stage, choreographed.

    "Tango Nuevo" is actually a 15 year old teaching system that aims o cover all leadable i.e. not choreographed moves in Tango.

    These "Nuevo" moves can therefore be danced socially (while improvising) and create the real life feelings that Argentine Tango is associated with.

    "Tango Nuevo" is primarily about leading and following skills (not entertainment) that cannot be judged from the outside when dancing with one partner.

    Therefore, Tango Nuevo or (the even newer) Neo-Tango are not suited for (serious) competition. You can "only" appreciate these dancers by dancing with them in your local milonga - howeve, many are even great to watch!
  6. Me

    Me New Member

    Okay, I'm glad I misunderstood part of your arguement. :) I was having flashbacks to milongas where I get stuck behind old couples who shake their canes and shout, "Slow down you whipersnapper! You don't dance real tango anyway. I miss the old days. Ah, the old days, with REAL tango music and REAL tango dancing. Ah, how I zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"

    "However, the passion and sensuality that really can take place in social Argentine Tango, when people like you and me improvise on a dance floor, can only be a fraction of that happening in a choreographed show.

    Who believes that anyone can create real passion and sensuality on demand when watched by a large audience and blinded by spotlights dancing the same seuence with the same partner and same music 101 times..?"

    Ah but here, I disagree. ;) For me, performance and all that goes with it intensifies the experience. But, my partner and I are very close, so no matter where we are dancing, there is always that intense connection. To say that you cannot experience something wonderful simply because you've already done it doesn't register with me. (Crass analogy but, sex? Now, I wouldn't do it in front of an AUDIENCE, mind you...) However, our 'fantasia' I guess you could call it is, really, only partially choreographed. There might be one place in the music where a gancho sequence is choreographed... things like that. So, even when we are performing, I must stay in tune with him or there will be consequences!

    It does sound to me like what you do not like is BAD fantasia - dancers going through pre-choreographed motions with no emotion. There was some of that going on in the above referenced DVD but those dancers did not place.

    I think the professionals you mentioned would rank quite well in competition. ;) It is my understanding that many of the 'CITA crowd' and their friends avoid those competitions because 90% of the entries consist of young dancers engaging in aerials, splits, etc, and what little tango they attempt to emulate has no emotional connection what-so-ever and, to add injury to insult, sloppy technique. (I mean, you've seen that DVD. You know what I'm talking about, no?) But, I've never walked up to any of these professionals and said, "Hey, why don't you compete?" so I cannot say for sure. I'm only going on what people I know who know them have said.

    I like talking with you. You don't hit caps lock and say nuevo and fantasia is crap, or that it is destroying tango, etc. You actually seem to believe that these variants of the dance may peacefully co-exist without tainting or destroying one another. :cool:
  7. fun

    fun New Member

    Hi Me,

    ..I like talking to you too and I think we agree on some things... :)

    Only..about your remark on the social dancers I quoted..I don't know a single one of the world class social dancers (the CITA etc. crowd) who would even care about being ranked somewhere... to avoid ambigous terms allow me to use the following analogy to make this clearer:

    In ballroom dancing "Banana" (a great flavour worldwide!) has been agreed on (worldwide standard) to represent the perfect fruit and every dancing seed strives to become a banana. Since there is one clear ideal (banana) judges can objectively evaluate how close someone is to banana and rank them. So, now, it is possible to hold fair fruit competitions.

    Naturally, as a result most ballroom dancers - especially the good ones look (technically) pretty much like banana - at least in the eyes of other fruit., not so much amongst the banana community I understand - oh, and of course Banana is a fantastic fruit/flavour! ;)

    On the other hand, in social Argentine Tango all fruit/flavours are considered right/perfect and its up to the individual dancer to pick or chose your own i.e. become another fruit or fruit blend when dancing...

    In real life you will find as many different fruit and fruit blends in AT as there are social dancers. All that matters to them is that they are having a good time/technique dancing with each other (winning a competition would not change a thing - so why bother). Some dancers of AT may even spend their first decade as a lemon and the next as a melon..always feeling what they are doing is great.

    Now, how could a judge ever figure out who is having the best time dancing with each other? They are not all striving to look banana - so how should a fair Argentine Tango competition work? Why should any of the fruit - who are all happily dancing and inspiring with each other - want to hold a best fruit competition (they are dancing with each other socially anyway)?

    Maybe this simplified comparison makes it a little easier to see another reason why even the best social Argentine Tango dancers (The "CITA crowd") are not interested in competitions.

    To sum it up, ballroom dancers will always be dominating dance competitions (look at their CVs, look what happen already in Salsa!) while social dancers will continue to dominate and shine on the social dance floors.

    My message for those who don't know Argentine Tango is simply: yes, there is Show-Argentine-Tango and competitions - however, it is a completely different dance when danced socially. Different technique, different skills, different attitude.

    Show and Fantasia dancers are great to watch - in fact some of my favourite social dancers are also professional show dancers (they all dislike competitions though..). Show and social skills, however, seldom meet in AT - that's why you see most show dancers rarely dance with others socially (well).

    Fantasia is for the stage. Milongero, nuevo and neo is improvised dancing on the social dance floor and not designed for stage or competition.

    Although it requires some dedicated training - it is perfectly possible (and great fun!) to lead a colgada - volcada - linear boleo into back sacada-combination in time with unknown music on a social dance floor with any good social Argentine Tango dancer anywhere in the world. however, that's "Nuevo" and "Neo" - not "Fantasia" / stage.
    All are fine with me as long as beginning dancers know their options and the differences. ;)

    Happy (fun) social dancing,

  8. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Many of us came to Argentine Tango partly because of the absence of competition, and Bronze, Silver, etc levels. In the absence of that .... what we found was an emphasis on development of the skills of the individual dancer, a number of ways to approach how the dance is taught, a number of styles to learn, and an emphasis on communicating with, and being connected to our partners.
    With no competition there is no one to please but yourself and your partner.
    With no competition there is no authority to give you a grade, and tell you outright how well you are doing compared to the other kids.
    You might consider Maslow's Pyramid.
    http://www.accompany.lu/newsAttachment/Maslow Pyramid.jpg
    Also consider that in competitions, you are being judged on how you look. To many of us Argentine Tango is about how it feels. Emphasizing the look of the thing tells you nothing about the feel of it.
    If that suits you, fine. Just try to understand why some of us don't give a lick.

    P.S. OK, let me add that you shouldn't forget to respect the other dancers on the floor!
  9. fun

    fun New Member

    I could not agree with you more Steve!
    You even managed to avoid the fruit analogy and could put it in much fewer words - I am jealous ;)

  10. Adiva

    Adiva New Member

    hi Dino can i buy the dvd?

    best regards
  11. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    What I found interesting about watching the DVD was doing my own judging and looking to see where the connection between the dancers was most evident. However as the sound track was poor and Dino didn't give a list of the dancers I don't really know who they are. Nevertheless we all had our favourites.

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