Tango Argentino > Tango snobs...

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by milongadicto, Aug 20, 2010.

  1. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Is it just me, or is this going back to a similar debate that came up in another thread--the idea of being authentic "versus" being nice. Or however you want to phrase it.

    Un-friggin'-believable. *shakes head in wonder*
  2. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    This is equating "nice" with being a doormat. No one has suggested that anyone be a doormat just to avoid being rude.

    It seems to me the whole point is about having enough self-respect to honor yourself without disrespecting others.

    That's not at all the same as being a snob or rude and hiding behind the claim of "discerning".
  3. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Yes... I'm shaking my head too... it's just a repeat of the "to have decency, respect and manners means being a fake, untrue to yourself, and lacking in self-respect" debate. :rolleyes:
  4. SD

    SD New Member

    emphasis added

    Quite understandable, as the point was presented briefly, nearly to the point of flippantcy.

    The important part must be gleaned by context; It concerns an individuals motivation for behavior. All of us may be happier if certain individuals restrained themselves from acting like an knat at milonga. If I were host of a milonga I might feel compelled to give certain instructions on decorum, just as if I were moderator of a discussion forum I might feel compelled to do the same. However, my experience has led me to understand the limitations of such exhortations. Hence my response to the Original Post differs a bit from yours, perhaps not in it's desired outcome, but certainly in form. You instruct, I ask a question.

    One can be a the leader in the sense of the role on the dance floor, walking with the follower in front of him. And one can be a leader in the sense that one's presence in a place, and one's actions, are source of great reassurance to other people, and others are grateful for one's presence and seek to emulate those behaviors.

    I believe that the second quality is not present in men at birth, and that the process of developing it inevitably entails making an knat of oneself at some point. First you do the thing. Then you get the courage. Anyone unwilling to risk making an knat of themselves is severely constrained in their actions.

  5. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    The thing about the motivation for behavior, I guess don't have an issue with. I just don't think being a leader requires that you be a jerk. Also, it can depend on what type of leader we are talking about (or what he is trying to lead). Being a leader in the military, is different from being a leader in one's community, which is also different from being a leader in tango.

    I'll concede that in some settings, being a leader might require that you are willing to risk looking like a jerk (or upsetting some people), but that (at least to me) is quite different from actually being a jerk.
  6. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I disagree. I believe there are people who are natural leaders (speaking generally, not dance specific) Perhaps it is only the ones who don't have that natural ability who have to make an knat of themselves as they "learn" leadership skills.

    However, people are obviously born with different strengths and talents. Leadership is one of those talents. Some people naturally inspire others to follow them, and others need to study Dale Carnegie to get any ability at all. Some people just can't do it no matter how hard they try.. it's just not part of their nature.

    It's like any other natural strength or ability.

    (BTW - as long as we've strayed far off topic a number of times already, there's an interesting set of books by Marcus Buckingham about focusing your energy on developing your strengths rather than trying to overcome your weaknesses... there are several "themes" in his list of strengths that are typical of successful leaders. Therefore, IMO there is such a thing as a natural tendency and ability for leadership. I suspect that the people who have to make an knat of themselves trying to develop leadership abilities are perhaps not naturally suited to leadership, as you say.. But I would go further and suggest that maybe they shouldn't be trying so hard to be something that they aren't suited for... just food for thought)
  7. v22TTC

    v22TTC New Member

    That's not what I, for one, am saying: if you are a naturally good and polite (and generous etc) person then it is authentic to be so -you will suffer a terrible dissonance if you are not those things.

    It is also possible to achieve excellence if you are such a person.

    If you were in a culture that valued such qualities - or had an infinite ability to move from place to place - then it wouldn't be anything to discuss.

    Buut, if you are trapped in a culture (and therefore massively outnumbered/'outpowered', with no options to keep moving to somewhere else) that only pays lip-service to the desirability of these qualities; whilst actually methodically and relentlessly attacking those with such qualities (in a completely merciless 'You lose everything!' way), just for the craic, just coz they can, just coz they watched the wrong drama on TV the night before, just as displacement... then a rational being has to perform a 'profit/loss' calculation (eventually, once the damage has become too much, and remaining options too few), and amend approach accordingly.

    Then the being less polite, good, generous etc is inauthentic - but it is necessary.

    The question then is: 'What is the minimum that I can walk down that road (for defensive appearances only), whilst remaining me, and causing minimal (ideally no) harm?'

    It's easy to roll your eyes when you're not the one in this situation....

    Again - none of this has any place whatsoever on the dancefloor itself: no room for baggage there.
  8. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Then what on earth are we talking about?
  9. v22TTC

    v22TTC New Member

    Because it has relevance to the environment surrounding the dancefloor... if we all just teleported on and off it, it wouldn't matter.
  10. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    I feel sad that you dont think this is of value?

    "Tango can be danced to any music that inspires
    it in dancers. It is a purely subjective and personal thing, but individuals my
    find tango inspiration in a variety of music genres outside the traditional
    genre." I agree with this viewpoint. I would rather someone danced with feeling to a piece of music that inspires them than to a piece of music that happens to be from Argentina at a particular moment in time. That is what i regard as a person being authentic

    a snob could be the opposite of this; someone who regards the Authenticity
    (cultural/temporal) of the music as more important than how he or she is responds to it.
  11. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Maybe we are not talking about the same thing. Here is a definition of snob, which is pretty close to what I was thinking of. Possibly the word has other meanings that I'm not aware of.


    Definition of SNOB

    1. British : cobbler
    2. : one who blatantly imitates, fawningly admires, or vulgarly seeks association with those regarded as social superiors
    3. a : one who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those regarded as inferior
      b : one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste
    Examples of SNOB

    • Most of the people in the club are snobs who look down on people who attended public schools.
    • Don't be such a snob.
  12. ant

    ant Member

    If you change the reference from "those" to "music" I think you are getting pretty close to what I understood BTM's post to mean.
  13. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    @ Dchester put the two together:

    a snob could be the opposite of this; someone who regards the Authenticity
    (cultural/temporal) of the music as more important than how he or she is responds to it.

    ie thinks dancing to anything other than Golden Age or Gardia Vieja is inferior...

    [*]a : one who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those regarded as inferior
    b : one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste
  14. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Perhaps, but music does not perceive that it is being ignored or being thought of as inferior. People on the other hand, may perceive that they are being ignored or being thought of as inferior, even if that isn't what someone has in mind when they exhibit a certain behavior.
    This is what makes the whole "snob" issue sort of "fuzzy".
  15. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, that's the way I looked at it as well. Having discriminating tastes (like in music) is not at all the same as being a snob. I always thought, part of being a snob is being offensive and/or disdainful. I wonder if across the pond, the word has a more positive connotation than it has here.
  16. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I think you completely missed the point of Peaches post... it had to do with behavior of people towards partners, not attitude towards music. After all, that was the previous discussion that she is referencing, I believe.
  17. SD

    SD New Member

    Just having discriminating tastes does not make you a snob. If you enjoy music, or food, or life in general, then you will be always curious to discover what other people like, to find new things and to share your passion by connecting with other people.

    A snob does none of these things, because he really prefers to separate and distinguish himself from other people. The disdain for other people's tastes is inherent in the definition of the word snob. There has to be some value scale implied.

    It doesn't matter whether it is a soccer hooligan making fun of a guy on his way to the opera, or whether it is a wine snob recoiling in disgust when a neighbor offers him a Pabst Blue Ribbon, the same emotions are at work.

    If Milongadicto's blog was solely concerned with discerning his favorite tango music and favorite examples of tango and musicality, then it wouldn't be about a tango snob. If you read his latest blog post it is even more clear that the unifying and dominant theme is his disdain for other people, and anger toward them. I need not supply any quotes; he is quite explicit.

    The only thing that makes it of any interest to read and not just another venom filled rant is that he is perhaps just a tiny bit conflicted, and more than a little bit dissatisfied. He doesn't like being a snob. So he may learn something from the experience. I tend to like being a snob, so it is harder for me to see my fears and insecurities that underlie the gratification I get out of feeling superior to the teeming masses.

  18. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I also think that is what BTM was talking about... but I'm not sure that any of the rest of us are talking about that. Wasn't the initial post about being a snob towards PEOPLE who aren't good enough dancers and whether that is being a snob or being discerning?

    How did it become about being preferring one sort of music over another? How can one treat music rudely? The whole idea is about how one relates to and treats PEOPLE.
  19. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Interesting to note that this is also part of the diagnostic criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder....
  20. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Beat me to it... the music doesn't perceive rudeness or bad manners.

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