Tango Argentino > Teaching Musicality to tango dancers

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by bordertangoman, Mar 2, 2010.

  1. Lui

    Lui Active Member

    Obvious :oops:, of course.
  2. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    LOL. I think I liked this better with "oblivious."
  3. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Awww... didn't mean to embarrass you.. in fact, its rather thought provoking with oblivious.
  4. bafonso

    bafonso New Member

    I agree with your Dave. I think you need a certain technique proficiency before you start exploring musicality. Although, in an ideal world, listening to music during classes enhances the idea of dancing to the music.

    I've found some people learn things quite separately. For example, most people I see at classes don't really care about the music when learning a step, technique, exercise. I myself find it very hard to forgo the music.

    I've actually found that I focus more on the technique/exercise with boring/alternative music.
  5. bafonso

    bafonso New Member

    While I agree that the author could have expanded more I find the Alberto's example a very good one. In fact, so good that he doesn't need to show off or dance fast to show his nice interpretation not overly done of a vals.

    There is a video I've seen on youtube of an old couple that I found amazing but can't remember... their vals was fantastic.

    And yes, a lot of people look a lot to the young heroes but that goes away with time if you develop sensitivity to other aspects of the dance...
  6. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Well I don't agree with four meanings being a mess. Many, many words in the english language have different but clearly understood meanings when used in different contexts and cadence is no different.

    The real mess occurs when people extend or change meanings to suit themselves. It's especially confusing in a written forum like this. Perhaps Oscar Casas is struggling for a suitable description, even his pendulum description isn't very apt.

    So I do agree with the difficulties of different languages, cultures and contexts making it worse. If this is the case, and this is a written forum, why is there a problem here in defining words which should help communication? Being vague yet complicating things nullifies the point of reading and writing on here.

    In this context he possibly meant letting go, feel the music and be free. It's the stage you can reach once you have it technically mastered and you no longer have to think about it . . . . maybe one day!
    Odd to hear such a relatively modern usage of funky being used for traditional tango. However earthy is another interpretation perhaps being partly what he meant, but it's all guesswork. Funky emerged out of jazz and blues and is yet another word used very loosely.

    Perhaps he simply wanted to see more musicality.
  7. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    :lol: I think we need a new thread for your moustache; my own facial hair is a bit of a desert; not enough to cultivate beard or tache.; it too is indifferent to tango and prefers Philip Glass and Steve Reich
  8. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member


    "In Western musical theory, a harmonic cadence (Latin cadentia, "a falling") is a progression of (at least) two chords that concludes a phrase, section, or piece of music.[1] A rhythmic cadence is a characteristic rhythmic pattern indicating the end of a phrase.[2] Cadences give phrases a distinctive ending, which can, for example, indicate to the listener whether the piece is to be continued or concluded. An analogy may be made with punctuation,[3] with some weaker cadences acting as commas, indicating a pause or momentary rest, while a stronger cadence will then act as the period, indicating the end of the phrase or musical sentence. A cadence is labeled more or less "weak" or "strong" depending on the sense of finality it creates. While cadences are usually classified by specific chord or melodic progressions, the use of such progressions does not necessarily constitute a cadence—there must be a sense of closure, as at the end of a phrase. Harmonic rhythm plays an important part in determining where a cadence occurs."

  9. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    And your point is?

    This is just the (expanded) meaning of cadence in music but there are other usages. This particular usage seems to have little if any relevance to Tango or even Oscar Casas's vague interpretation.

    I would challenge the use of harmonic rhythm. Harmonics are to do with vibrations, often musical of course. You can argue that a vibration is indeed a rhythm but it isn't a rhythm we perceive, we perceive it as continuous tones.

    As the explanation is from Wikipedia this is just one or many people's opinions and I prefer the Oxford Dictionary for reference when it comes to word meanings. Indeed I could go right now to Wikipedia and edit the reference to harmonic rhythm out of it.
  10. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    my point is people have asked what Cadence means. as opposed to Cadenzia. Cadence, in English, is a musical term it refers largely to do with things tonal and harmonicso Cadenzia must mean something entirely different. The Wikepedia definition seems to accord with what I have read elsewhere having read several books on music recently.

    Challenge away by all means but you would have to contest at least three or four centuries of music.....
  11. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    I would only challenge the use of harmonic rhythm which frankly is confusing. I'm certainly not challenging the musical meaning of cadence.

    The point I am making is that there are other more appropriate meanings of cadence (and for that matter, cadencia) for tango than the musical one(s); despite that tango is movement to music.

    Cadence that Oscar Casas is talking/teaching is all about the movement we see and we feel, not the music we hear.
  12. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    then call it cadenzia which is what we are talking about.
  13. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Well the spanish word does indeed seem to be cadencia, not cadenzia, which I'm happy to use but it doesn't change much if anything.

    What I can't talk about is what the extended usages of the word are in Spanish or in Argentinian Castellano. Nevertheless Oscar Casas appears to me to be using cadencia interchangeably with its english relative: cadence. It may indeed be that he has picked up the extended usage of cadence to mean a rhythmic repeated movement and fed that back into cadencia. Again that's guesswork and it's likely I am interpolating too much.

    Both words are rooted in the Latin words cadens & cadentia(pl).
  14. bafonso

    bafonso New Member

    If you need someone to explain to you what cadencia means then you don't get it. You need to feel it. Maybe watching a lot of old milongueros is a good start...
  15. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    El Flete

    okay three more to analyse..

    [yt]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KrUHYC5H_ss&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KrUHYC5H_ss&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/yt]

    [yt]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DidS7KXZYFk&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DidS7KXZYFk&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/yt]

    [yt]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/SZZf9Vkx9oQ&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/SZZf9Vkx9oQ&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/yt]
  16. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    that is a typical unhelpful arrogant remark I would expect from a haliwr.

    No-one I have ever been taught by, Argentine or otherwise has even mentioned this term. if my asking it on this forum what a word which doesnt seem to have an equivalent English word

    Perhaps if you think you know what it means but no-one has explained to it to you how can you be so sure you understand what it means?
  17. Madahlia

    Madahlia Member

    My vocabulary has certainly increased by at least one word during recent posts. Didn't realise you spoke Cymraeg, BTM.
  18. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Briefly as I should be trying to get some work done!

    All three are musical in their own way.
    First one is inventive but I don't like Chicho's style,
    it's just not for me, so it's all I can do to watch!

    The second one is closer to my preference and demonstrates
    very effectively the dance being influenced by the melody yet always stepping/landing together on a beat. Besides the physical connection, they are connected by the rhythm.

    The third for me is weird. She is always in compas, his relationship with the rhythm just seems careless and sloppy. Bent legs and heel leads don't help either. I know he's very busy with all the clever stuff but for me that's no excuse. It's slightly discomforting to watch closely.

    That's based on just one viewing only and I haven't time for more.
  19. Lui

    Lui Active Member

    I’m rather reluctant to upload anything on youtube, as I don’i like the thought somebody somewhere will analyse it to death. Posting this vids, what do you want to hear?

    I wouldn’t have danced el flete like any of the three, but that didn’t make me right or them wrong. All four of us would have drawn a horse different, if I may borrow from the art metaphor earlier on. I didn’t like some parts of the musical interpretation, but I don’t like bananas, but enjoy broccoli. So, maybe it’s more a matter of my personal taste, than of their musical qualities. As a show it could have been more exciting, but I don’t even know if giving a show was their intention at all.

    I’m not so keen on judging videos, as there is little to gain by it. I like to use some videos as an inspiration. If I see something I would like to master, I will try to understand the inner workings, maybe emulate it. At a first glance nothing in those videos caught my eye.
  20. Lui

    Lui Active Member

    Trying to explain cadencia by writing can be very enlightening, even when I seem to have failed so far. When looking for the right words and metaphors I need to check my own definitions and convictions. Even when the question is not finally answered I god more clarity about my own ideas.

    Only when I question my own ideas once a while, I can be sure I'm not constantly fooling myself.

    Look at musicality for example. I think I have some sort of concept about musicality, but now a friend of mine has taken up Butoh dance. I'm at odds with traditional Japanese music, but Butoh is even more far out. It doesn't feel musical to me, nevertheless the dance makes sense somehow. In the end, I had to accepted that my concept of musicality is to tight for Butoh and I don't want to expand it. So for my own personal peace of mind I have decided good Butoh dance is noisical.

    If you like to challenge your concept of musicality here are some Butoh examples:

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