Tango Argentino > The Basic Eight Debate (cont..)

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Heather2007, Oct 1, 2007.

  1. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Hmmm...not convinced.

    First, not all tango music is in 2/4. My understanding is that a lot of the very old stuff is, but there was a change to 4/4 predominantly later on.

    Also, there is no set timing for the 8cb, so I don't see how it would necessarily correlate (usefully) to the phrasing.

    Also, there are so many things that can be emphasized besides the phrasing. The beat, the melody, the instrumentation, other little thing stuck in there for good measure. And the possibilities are almost endless when you have a leader who's skilled enough to ask his follower to be playing with one element while he emphasizes something else.

    Just my $0.02.
  2. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    But THEY, are part and parcel of "phrasing "--

    Phrasing , in ,and of its self, is purely a written musical sequence . How one chooses to interpret that " sequence ", holds true, for all dance genres .

    How and were, we Emphasise, within the framework of " notes" and " chords", should fit the given sequence, in the rhythmical sense .

    The afficinados, are adept at displaying those skills .
  3. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    What do you mean by "purely a written musical sequence?"
  4. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    What do you mean by "What do you mean by "purely a written musical sequence?""

    My guess that is there a beat on which to walk and I think its every other therfore the little hieroglyphs on the sheet music ie 2/4 4/4 don't mean much to the dancer; its what is heard that counts.

    my farthing's worth
  5. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    All compositions are written with melody and chorus, usually preceeded by a 4 or 8 bar intro-- The following musical passages, are set up in 16 and 32 bar " sets "-- those are the musical sequences, easily identifiable by the change in amplification, in most cases .

    Sometimes, a 4 bar "pickup " phrase, is inserted in some musical compositions .
    Iit is my job, as a leader, to discern those " highs and lows " in the musical passages .
  6. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    In response to btm's question about what did I mean...

    Now, having read tt's response...

    The reason why I asked what he meant is that I had a suspicion (now confirmed) that TT and I were using the idea of "musical phrasing" differently from one another. I didn't want to go on record of disagreeing with him, and bothering to go through the reasons why, when we're talking about apples v. oranges.
  7. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    I believe what you mean-- is rhythmical interpretation ?-- which by its definition, fits the composition ( phrases )
  8. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    TT, could you please rephrase that question? If, in fact, it was a question. I can't make heads or tails of your last post.
  9. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    Was making ref. to your last post, about the differences being discussed .
  10. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    No, I got that. But I can't parse Post #167 in a way that it makes sense.

    I'm well versed in music and musical terminology. I'm not talking about structural phrasing, or pickup phrases, or sets of bars. I'm talking about smaller elements--a section of the melodic line, a phrase of an instrument that is brought to the forefront of the music, a series of notes that are joined together to make a phrase, a musical "thought." That sort of thing.

    So...we are, I believe, using the idea of "phrasing" differently.
  11. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    Your response, denotes interpretation within a given bar -- I alluded to that notion earlier on and am in agreement-- its when you apply the term " phrase " , it generally denotes a musical passage .
  12. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    OK, well, I couldn't understand what you meant. I disagree that what I'm talking about is "interprettion within a given bar." Yes, phrase is a musical passage, but I had never intended to relate it to musical structure.

    Anyway. It's neither here nor there. I don't feel like getting into music theory discussion. I think we're generally in agreement, anyhow.
  13. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    I recommend listen to Sherriff Of Hong Kong from the album Doc at the Radar Station by Captain Beefheart: each instrument is doing something different, rhythmically and its a fine lesson in musical complexity and makes Schoenberg look like a p*u*s*s*y*cat.

  14. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    TT's posts 162/165 are very good. And I have come to know Peaches to be often right in the ball park, as well. However, as one musician to another, ....

    ...could be something of note. It should be remembered that musicians and dancers read, hear, interpret music differently. What is an eighth note or quarter note for musician is not the same for the dancer. [we had this discussion somehwere else on the DF recently...I'll have to look it up]. For those of us who do both, we must keep changing hats...or shoes. ;)

    I believe so.
  15. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Very true. Kinda why I was asking how he meant what he said...didn't want to go off on a tangent only to find out later we were discussing different concepts!

    This is very true. Learning to hear the music differently when I started dancing was an interesting exercise. I grew up with music all around me, and played intermittently for years. My mother studied to be a conductor, so that way of hearing music (time signature/conducting based) is what I was used to. 'T'was quite a switch to think about things (ballroom,wise) in terms of 2-bar phrases, and to think about having a basic that didn't align with the music (bronze am. foxtrot and swing come to mind). Oh, and the use of the word "syncopation" drove me nuts.

    And then to get into the world of AT, and learn to hear all over again! (Although I still haven't quite figured it all out. I'm told, over and over again, that I'm very musical/have great musicality...and I can't figure out what in blazes they're talking about! I guess I'm doing something right, I just wish I could figure out what! lol.)
  16. kieronneedscake

    kieronneedscake New Member

    Select any of the following, which you may do subconciously:

    You adjust your trajectory so that each step arrives in time to the music (holding back or accelerating accordingly).

    You adjust your movements, be they decoration or steps to match the character of the music, or reflect musical details. (eg. fierce ocho turns that screech to a halt as a phrase ends, or correspondingly smooth and swoopy turns for flowing music such as waltzes)

    You enjoy the music while you dance and/or pick up musical jokes and details that your partner may try to act on.
  17. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member


    Step on time...check. Find it extremely difficult not to, actually. But I'd never have considered that musicality, and it's very leader-dependent anyway.

    Um...yeah, if the leader is leading that way. I find it kind of hard to do that if the leader isn't.

    Don't decorate much, something I'm now being pushed to do. (Well, to "make my tango my own.") Will circle while waiting. Will cross behind before a side step (instead of a basic gathering together). Will tap before stepping, usually in milonga. Will flick in front of my standing leg after stepping over, but before taking the next step in a pasada. I like to really dissociate my torso/hips in an ocho cortado, and really open up my hips before turning back to my leader...that's fun and feels good. Nothing other than that, though.

    Love most of the music. Don't know so much about picking up jokes and details. With decent/good leaders I know (or have clicked with during the course of a tanda), the timing of the steps--if not the steps themselves--are often not surprising...it just feels right with the music. Don't think I'd consider that picking up on musical jokes/details.

    I'm a pretty passive follower, when it's all said and done. I've been told I need to really start working on putting my own personality into my dancing. Kinda uncomfortable with that. The whole "embrace being a woman" thing just soooo is not me. The whole musicality thing just stumps me. *shrug* I guess I'm kinda happy that I'm able to do something nicely without having to work at it...but it makes working on IT and improving IT that much harder since I can't figure out just what IT is. Like I said, I'm just a very passive follower at this point...what has been derided on these forums as being something kind of annoying in a follower. Oh well.
  18. kieronneedscake

    kieronneedscake New Member

    Peaches, you do yourself a disservice. You admit openly that you actively move parts of your body (typically the feet) to add to the dance. You take an active interest in doing things that feel good and improve the dance, and that's not passive at all!

    Sure, you're not back-leading and putting your feet where they're not expected, but that's not you. I think you'll find IT will improve as long as you are thinking about adding to the dance. Your personality will let itself out when it finds a way that suits, and that probably involves rock-solid fundamentals in how you stand and walk.

    Which brings us handily back to the basic eight, a mechanism (that I personally disapprove of) to teach many fundamental techniques... there, that wasn't too far off topic was it?
  19. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    *shrug* You're very sweet to say so. To me, it just feel like following. If I don't have a leader who moves his body differently to different music...stuck for a topic on musicality. I'm very, VERY spoiled by my teacher.

    Hmmm...now I'll have to find the time to go back and read the thread to discover why you don't approve of the 8CB as a teaching method, Kieron.
  20. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    You are proably responding intuitively, like me. I have attended some very very good workshops on musicality run by Joaquin Amenabar and even then I found it difficult to hear certain instrumnets or differentiate between say bandoneon and violin. I have watched Chicho dance to the rhythm in the singers words eg for El Porteno where the cadence is totally uneven. Easier to dance to rap where the words ar staccato and fa more regular.!

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