Discussion in 'General Dance Discussion' started by patois, Jan 22, 2006.
Would you say all teachers who say this are only saying this because they are advertising?
Or what about people who are just out social dancing in a club?
Ayuh, and I'm editing.
Does it fit every Am who dances Pro-Am?
I'd likely want to understand the details before having a full opinion.
If you are the only student and this is what he charges, perhaps it is ok. I can see how if the pro charges the "loss of income" to each student, and doesn't divide it out over all students, this could be an issue. Anyway, if you aren't comfortable with what is being charged, perhaps you could negotiate? Maybe the Pro would see your wisdom and change what is being charged?
Also, hopefully the Pro can make a profit. There will be a need to cover expenses, yet the Pro is in business.
Exactly, time is money.
Hmmm ... money is only a method of exchange, and it seems to be an easy way to transfer one thing for another. Without it, we'd be trading whatever we do for a living for something that someone else does for a living. Money makes it easy to trade such things.
Sometimes money gets such a bad rap.
Hmmm ... I don't know, the world recognizes a weekend as being a weekend. If a pro has down time during the week, I understand where you are coming from. Yet a weekend is still a weekend, and dance pros do work on weekends.
Ok ... so what does this instructor get per hour at the studio for privates and group lessons missed? How many actual classes will be missed? How many students are going to the comp? Perhaps I'm missing other obvious questions?
I suspect the instructor, if a good business person, knows approximately how much income they will take in for the year from privates, groups, and comps. They budget this all out and thats where they come up with a price. Maybe not.
On behalf of Mamboqueen, [Edit: removed at Mamboqueen's request]
Please don't speak on my behalf unless you have been asked to do so.
Yikes. First the analogy is a wee bit of a stretch.
"lumbering around with beginners who never practice" Yikes, again.
I am not asking my instructor to play dance w/me; he is offering to take me and others to the comp. If I pay his expenses - all of them - that's fair. If 3 of us go and all of us pay the same expenses again - that's not fair. If he pads the costs of the hotel/reg/meal pkg - thats fair. Now, where does it stop. If he charges me $l,000 for time missed, and by the way one day is not a full day, IS THAT FAIR. (It is not the actual amt $ he loses.)
If 3 of us go and each pays $l,000 for time missed, is that fair. H-e-double- toothpick, NO!
Simple. I do not go. Easy decision. I'm still getting little nudges from him...have you changed your mind? The sole reason for this thread was to ask for information on how others compute the costs of attending competitions. I don't know squat about any of this. Seems as if some of the time we are missing the point in this thread.
The relationship w/my instructor is a business partnership. He provides a service. I pay him. But the propping up of one's business by the few who appear able to do so is getting old. (This, unfortunately is part of his business plan.) Therefore. I just go dance. I dance. That's what I do. I don't care a whit if I ever hit a comp floor--may, but can take it or leave it. Certainly there are plenty within driving distance that are way less expensive. Just dance. Say no, can't give any more $ now. Just dance. Appreciate him for what he provides which is a lot. Enjoy the opportunity to engage in an activity that completely blows me away. It's passion. I'm lucky. Dance.
Good for you - keep that passion!! I reccomend competition tho - it will really improve your focus and the goal aspect will make you improve a lot. Find someone to do it with...
Good for you to see the 'business' tactics as what they are.
wondering where your experience comes from.
Do you dance proam? Amam? What style? What level? How long?
I have worked in Ballroom Dance Studios for over 15 years and I have met some phenomenal people that I am truly grateful that have come into my life-staff, owners, trainers and students.
During this time I have worked from some unethical people and my employment did not last long because I generally speak my mind when I feel ‘something’ is not right.
There are two types of people in this business: People who have a passion for the dance and build a successful business around their beliefs and then there are people running a business around the dance industry, only to make a dollar.
Anyway, not to stray from the topic of competition and money- The studios and franchises I have worked for (still with a franchise) that are ethical understand the cost of competition as most of the owners/teachers have been there themselves when competing professionally. The cost to the student is their entry free to the ballroom, the cost per dance plus the teacher fee per dance and small fee per dance for the studio (the cost per dance from the organizers varies with each competition, but generally about the same from one to another), their transportation if any is needed and their accommodation package if they are spending the night (many include the entry fees to the ballroom and meals), generally all organizers charge a fee for your plaque or awards holder of sorts. Then you have the teacher’s expense (entry fee to the ballroom –not sure why organizers charge the teachers when they are the ones bringing the business- a teacher’s expense for the day (usually a small amount to allow for food as the teacher is already getting paid per dance) the expense of travel and accommodations if they are required. The teachers expenses should be divided equally amongst all of her/his students and not each student paying the total cost of their instructor.
Having said all this, this is where it gets a bit fuzzy. Most studios have a buddy system with teachers/students. Every student has two teachers and there are many reasons why, both from a business side and learning side for the student. If a teacher is away competing then there is generally a buddy teacher available to teach her/his non-competing students. If this is the case, then why charge the competing student fees for the teacher being out of the studio when the lessons missed are being covered by other teachers. Generally, the competing student has already spent more money in the studio because he/she has doubled-up on lessons from their program in the weeks prior to the competition. Why charge the student a third fee? 1- Regular lesson, 2- the additional lesson(s), the 3rd being fees when the teacher is out of the studio. The studio has already made money by burning off the lesson liability.
If the studio doesn’t have a buddy system, then I can understand a fee of sorts, but as I mentioned earlier, a studio generally puts a small fee in with the cost per dance to cover home expenses. Why charge too much more?
If the studio is an independent studio then the teacher generally rents floor space. Then it’s at the teacher’s discretion to charge for the competition as the host studio of the teacher is not involved with the competition aspect.
Hope this helps everyone with regards to your concerns about competition/money.
I can see this from a different prospective. I compete amatuar with my husband and it has been years since we traveled to a comp with an instructor. It keeps our costs down, and the majority of our dance budget funds are spent on instruction, rather than an instructors time to travel with us.
However, you really do miss something traveling on your own, and I can see the monetay value of traveling with a coach. A competition setting is just different from the comfort of the studio, and even though we bring home tapes it is still difficult to really communicate to our instructors how we performed. An then, well it is just fun to travel with an instructor.
In March we are traveling with an instructor to a comp, and absolutley our cost of this comp are much much higher than we are use to. Still, we did not hesitate to write the check! We know that we are now paying for additional services and simpy that is just the cost for the service. Sure, we wont do this with every comp, but it is nice to have the option.
Welcome to df, SambaAction...and thanks for sharing your experiences. I have never heard of the "buddy" system, but it sounds like a wise idea. I imagine it wouldn't work in a fairly small studio (i.e, my teacher is the only one there during daytime hours). Do you use that system for both social and competitive dancers?
Good to see you again, Janathome...it's been a while. Weren't you having some issues with your instructor or am I mistaking you with someone else?
My opinions on Pro/Am: Personally, I'd never do it. Not because I believe that the Cinderella complex stands for the Ams doing Pro/Am, partly because it's too expensive, and partly because I (again, personally) would feel inferior dancing in competitions with a man who is way above my level and is probably covering up many of my mistakes. Even if I placed, I would always wonder, is it just him making me look good? I'm sure most Pros make their students look better than they actually are - not intentionally, but subconsciously. Even in our everyday classes our teachers/coaches subconsciously do a good save when we miss a follow because they are more experienced. It might look like the step was executed well by both when it is not the case.
Still, this is not a strong argument. My strongest reason for not wanting to dance Pro/Am is the fact that I'll never be on the same boat with my partner. In a Pro/Pro or Am/Am partnership, the partners are practically equal. They practice together, take classes together, learn together. They both do it solely because they want it and enjoy it and not because they are being paid. They are, in my mind, truly partners.
Clarifications: A Pro can be enjoying his Pro/Am arrangement. He can be excited when he has a good student who strives to do better each day. I'm sure many Pros draw the same pleasure out of dancing Pro/Am that they do when teaching a student. From the small taste I have had of it (teaching, not Pro/Am), it truly is a delight. Yet a Pro and an Am still have a "strictly business" relationship. One is paying the other to be his/her partner, right? In my head, dancing Pro/Am can be an extension of the learning process,sort of like a workshop in the ways of competitions. So obviously, I would never say it's bad. That would be like saying "Group classes are silly, we should all be taking privates". It's simply a teaching method I wouldn't be eager to try.
P.s. I've just stepped out of my hiatus to say all this. Do take them into consideration.
P.p.s. Fascination pointed out that an argument I was referring to happened some time ago and has quieted down. My bad, I wasn't following this thread too closely. Edited.
actually TE, this all happened before your hiatus and has long since simmered down...and will hopefully stay that way...and you certainly bring valid points to the fore....and I hope you are enjoying your time away
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