Tango Argentino > "The Dinzel System"?

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Dave Bailey, Mar 18, 2010.

  1. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Anyone heard of this?

    I got this from a description of an event:
    After a quick search I found this:
    I'd be interested to know how this works, and if anyone's got experience of it?
  2. JonD

    JonD New Member

    I believe that Jenny & Ricardo Oria studied with Los Dinzel, although they don't mention it on their website. However, they might be able to help with more information about the "method".
  3. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    The reviews on Amazon of their book:
    Tango : An Anxious Quest for Freedom
    are not very complimentary.

    And I'd always run a mile whenever I see teachers using words like pedagogical as they do on their website.

    It's slightly amusing to see them claim that they are teaching how tango was danced in the 1850s. How do they know? People still dispute and discuss whether there was any african influence on the dance.

    I'm sure they are well-intentioned, indeed an interview I found seems to confirm that. But they do seem to have a show tango background . . .

  4. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    You are interested in this!!!; aint it a bit hippyish for you?

    but it sounds interesting:)
  5. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    "interested in" <> "agree with" or even "like the concept"... ;)

    From what I know, the whole "danced by two equally active dancers" concept doesn't really work. It's a lead-follow dance, not a lead-lead dance. However, if someone can explain how this works, or if someone has experience of this, I'm prepared to have an open mind on the topic.

    Well, "open" by my standards.
  6. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    For me, it doesn't work.

    We have a teacher locally here teaching an active participation by the lady - he's teaching a favourite partner of mine and now she's starting to do what you and I would know in jive as sabotage. So far it's only slowing down the cross ending of an ocho cortado so my trick is to do less of them at present.

    But it does disturb the flow and rhythm of the dance and my preference is against it. Surely there's a huge contribution that a good lady makes without encouraging her to change the vibe?

    I'm hoping it's a fad that will pass.
  7. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    So the Vin Diesel System isnt good enough for you then?
  8. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Or, "The Worst Act Of Evil Possible By A Human Being".

    Ah yes, the Riddick Guide To Tango... Good times :D
  9. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Crikey - I wouldn't go that far!! It's only dancing . . . .
  10. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Dancing is not a matter of life and death. It's far more important than that.
  11. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    I don't dance tango, but I find when doing ballroom standard with a partner skilled in the mechanics of the dance that its sometimes possible to get into a mutually sensitive enough state to be very infleunceable, to the point where its not always clear who originated everything that happens.

    This seems to require both dancers to be very comfortable and capable in the moment despite the future being unknown, to be able to read subtle changes of body position or energy that suggest but don't fully require one of the roads at each decision fork, etc.

    Another way of looking at it is that a good leader will be poised to take suggestions from the music and openings of space on the floor. No reason he can't also be receptive to influence from a partner, too.
  12. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    I suppose it's important to do it while you're alive . . . . .
  13. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Yes I agree, in both ballroom and tango.
    In Tango it becomes quite obvious, often in retrospect, that the dance you've just had was influenced (hopefully for the good, but not always) by your partner.

    But that isn't what David is asking as he's talking about a positive taking over of the lead by the lady. It happens and it's different.
  14. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    Yes, that works too. But if the leader was leading less than absolutely, at some point of development the takeover could be less than absolute, too.
  15. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member


    Yes - assuming that's what this system entails. But I'd still like to hear from someone who's experienced the system?
  16. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    I have no experience of the so-called system and I don't think the word system has any place in Tango.

    But perhaps, and only perhaps, the teacher I have in mind has learned the Vin Diesel System (oops Dinzel I meant). Especially as he uses the same dreaded pedagogical words and he certainly is teaching a positive intervention (oh I meant active contribution of course) by the lady.

    I'd be interested to hear from someone else too and also how it is the Dinzels know how tango was danced in this way in 1850 which almost certainly predates the embrace, upright posture, apilado etc. Is it just yet another teacher's version of tango adding even more confusion?

    Just keep dancing - it's your tango, not theirs.
  17. Gssh

    Gssh Well-Known Member

    Not sure if this is what they are talking about (actually i am pretty sure they are not), but i have some experience with what i would call "two equally active dancers" -for me it only happens with very few followers, and only in close embrace, but what happens is that the "leader" asks for a move, and the "follower" then leads it. The archetypical experience is the close embrace giro where the follower powers and controls the whole move, and then you just keep this kind of "the follower moves the couple and the leader feels that energy and does stuff with it" thing up. I like it when it happens, but it requires very precise leading, and the leader having a direct feeling of were her feet exactly are, and how much weight she has on them, and how she hears the music and what timing her next step is going to be on.

  18. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    That's a really interesting observation and I can certainly envisage how that can work within a partnership that's really in tune. And it needs a lady who really commits to the movement of the turn.
    Not sure whether that's part of it but it would be good to find out.

    So far it's not my experience of an active participation of the lady.
  19. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    I think that leaders rejecting a follower's efforts to dance actively, even as actively as the lead, is an unfortunate consequence of a high control, macho, element present in some aspects of tango. Or perhaps the result of a beginning leader who just doesn't yet get it.

    The average follower certainly understands the music as well as the average lead, and certainly has as much to contribute to the couple as the lead. And I do not mean just in the form of minor adornments. It is not only possible, but spectacularly enjoyable, to dance interactively even though it is indeed a lead-follow dance. The old saw is: The lead proposes, the follow disposes. I.e., she goes where she will with la marca.
  20. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Re: Dinzel System

    Hi Dave, never read their book, nor seen there CDs. But the teachers of our teachers (i.e the first generation of tango teachers in Europe) were influence a great deal by the Dinzels. What I got to know: in my eyes it is a traditional and old fashioned teaching method. In argentine eyes this might have been a revolution, bc. they worked and felt as real teachers in our sense, focussing on the studends. The elements itself are close to Pugliese system (counting of the steps a.s.o.).

    Here´s an interview http://tangopulse.net/index_l.htm

Share This Page