Tango Argentino > "The Dinzel System"?

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Dave Bailey, Mar 18, 2010.

  1. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    I'm at a bashing my head on a brick wall moment.

    Do I really need to explain this?
    The audience clapped an unexpected (to them) move.
    It looked good, it was designed to look good.

    They are an established dancing show couple, it's expected.
    See their history, there's plenty written about them.
    But like much in tango, it was an illusion, it was entertainment.


    I've no idea actually whether the Dinzel's are teaching this
    active participation in the context of show tango or social tango.
    I'm actually going to guess at least showy tango as the evidence now is that they don't attend milongas. It makes their opinion and teaching unimportant to me and rather academic especially as it is the teaching world they seem to aiming at.
     
  2. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Lui, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that I can see where, for some people, they find it helpful to define the options and then to organize workable options and variations. If it doesn't make sense to you, fine. Perhaps it makes sense to someone else, though.

    You say that the approach of "what do I want to achieve and how do I get there" is more helpful. The way I read Angel's post, that's pretty much the same thing this system was trying to address...just in a more, er, systematic way. Different horses for different courses...no big deal.
     
  3. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Angel HI, firstly, thanks for both chasing this one up, and for taking the time to do this explanation - it's much appreciated.

    That sounds fairly reasonable. I've gone off the "dance as conversation" analogy recently, because people interpret this to mean that followers get an equal chance to "speak" (lead), which simply is not the case.

    But I can't think of a better analogy. Well, OK, I _can_, but not a polite one. ;)

    How about horse-riding? Its's a partnership, and both parties have equal "value" (arguably the horse is more important in fact), but the rider decides where to go, at what speed, and when.

    Hmmm... separate thread needed I think...

    Anyway:
    Sounds very similar to the Tango Investigation Group methodology to me, at least in general terms. Each step opens up possibilities for the next step. Combinations of possibilities create the movements.

    Not sure I understand this. Surely the lead for a sidestep left is the same as the lead for a sidestep right, simply in the opposite direction?

    Or by "direction" do you (does he) mean "series of steps"?

    If the latter, that sounds dodgy - it's like a Big Book Of Secret Signals to "lead" insanely complex patterns of movement.

    A bit like our threads then :)

    Well I'm tempted to get it also. Which may be the point I guess.

    Thanks again for clarifying.
     
  4. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Oh John, you are taking the very rest of my illusions. Claro, I know them, but that move wasn´t that spectacular... But if it was what I saw in it first, I would have applaud. (But not an unexpected move).

    See you
     
  5. Lui

    Lui Active Member

    Peaches,
    a deterministic system is good for stage, where you know the music in advance and nobody will get in your way. Before the show you have plenty of time to puzzle out your combinations and prepare an emergency out if anything goes wrong. Dancing at a Milonga, their is no time to prepare. You either need a big variety of option to choose from combined with super quick wits or the ability to adapt the step you are about to do anyway to the situation. In my eyes the last option is better. Imagine a couple coming towards you against the LOD or your desire to hit the next Pa-da-da-bum. Having some strategy to do this with any step will grant you freedom. Dialing through memorized sequence pattern only creates trouble. I agree that it is helpful to teach students some standard solutions for standard problems, but I thinks it’s important to encourage them to discover the mechanics behind those.

    The cross you mention is usually taught when the follower is positioned a little bit right ahead to leader, both stepping towards the LOD in parallel system after the lady has put her right foot down. The more experience a leader gathers the more possibilities he will discover for the cross - maybe first from the crossed system, than from a different alignment, than maybe as part of a continuous movement or as a cross to the other foot. It is even possible to lead a cross dancing back to back.

    Therefore, I consider the question “After what step to lead a cross” to be of lesser importance, compared to “How to lead a cross”,”Why.to lead a cross” and “How to fit it to the music”. I have no clue how to put the answers to the last three questions into a book. Any system that leads away from the last three aspects however, is rather confusing and not helpful in my eyes.
     
  6. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Thanks for this. It was good. While I'm sure I won't agree with everything in his book, your explanation did make me curious.

    One of my favorite pair of teachers, Gustavo Benzecry Saba, along with his lovely partner, Maria Olivera, once told me that it's good to study all forms of tango. I'll likely give this book a read (assuming it can be found in English).
     
  7. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    No. As much as I like her, she does/did have a way of sometimes dancing a wee inappropriately even at milongas. This was, knowing her partner, led innately, as John suggested, but still out of touch for social dance. This was an exhibition, and is one reason why the audience clapped. The other... was because the average audience will not clap for the skill involved in dancing well, but will for the least little bit of flash, pomp, and circumstance.

    :p Surprised Peaches didn't come to my aid. She usually corrects persons immediately, if not sooner. No harm done. Just a mention, FTR. ;)

    I believe that you are correct, and this is why there is the controversy that there is, and why, as Jan posted, they are not popular to frequent the milongas.

    I agree w/ Peaches' assessment.

    However, Lui, this is one of the things that Rudy is trying to get at in the book/system. Not that I agree w/ the system completely, but I do agree w/ this.....

    There are not more than 4 directions that one may go. We know that one of the basics of the dance is to always dance it on a straight line. given this premise, there are only 2 lines/4 directions. I understand that the misunderstanding is a common one. Yes, there are 16 such straight lines, but, thank God, we re only dancing on 2 at a time.
     
  8. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    I will disagree most strongly! No, the follow does not lead. BUT, if the follow "goes off topic", perhaps she is changing the subject in a most wonderful way. The leader does not have a monopoly on musicality and interpretative ability and does a dis-service to himself and his partner if he does not listen.

    What I always try to do is mark, not insist. The follow will do something in response. Then I respond to what she has done. Etc. I try never, except with beginning follows who just don't get it, to lead in a manner that "forces" a particular response. If the lead listens, an advanced follow can slow him down, can stop, can change direction and flow, etc, and all in such a manner that the lead and follow are not fighting.

    It really can be a conversation!
     
  9. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    It sounds a lot like leading.

    ;)
     
  10. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    I think this depends a lot upon the style being danced. In an open embrace, because the connection can be looser, there is much more room for the follower to contribute her influence. In close-embrace/apilado, since the connection is tighter, I don't find much room for her to be doing her own thing.

    I do want my partner to bring me a dance, and I do pay attention to what she's doing, but if she was doing as much as you suggest, I would consider that she was interfering with the dance I was trying to give her.
     
  11. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    The shared connection is where the opportunity lies in apilado. Since both patners rely on the other to maintain that forward position, it is pretty easy for the woman to "withdraw" her weight and influence the man's movement toward her.
    Like wise, a slight rotation of HER torso can deflect the man to one side or the other once he has begun his step.
    All of this best done subtlely and with a big dose of discretion.
    I even think it MAY be best for the woman to deny having done anything!


    Yes, Ladies, Bring It!
     
  12. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    That sounds more like Aikido than tango.
     
  13. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    By gosh I think you've got it!
    If you haven't experienced it...
    And, your reaction to it when and if it happens will determine whether or not, or how much, it happens again.
    I have known, and do know, men who don't want to go there.
    I have known, and do know, women who know they (and this is their word) intimidate men. (I know we aren't talking about anyone here!)

    Apilado can be pretty intense.
     
  14. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    I said the follower doesn't lead, you also said that.

    So where are you disagreeing? :confused:

    I also said that the reason I don't like the analogy is because a lot of followers (typically early-intermediates) tend to interpret that saying to mean that they can lead. Which, as we both agree, they can't.

    I agree. I never said otherwise.

    I agree.

    I agree. With the proviso that you've got to be really good to get to this point, and most people aren't really good. I know I'm not that good - although I suspect you are.

    The analogy is dangerous, because it sets up incorrect expectations to improver-level followers. That's what I meant.
     
  15. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I think BOTH partners need to be pretty advanced for this to work properly. Otherwise it's just "breaking the connection".... a common mistake of less advanced dancers.
     
  16. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    That would be true. She would be interfering with the dance I might be trying to give her. However, I prefer not to "dance her", to give her my dance. I prefer instead that we really bring our dances to each other.

    In CE, which we dance a lot, she can also control the lead by how she uses the floor. For example, if I start to lead an ocho cortada, does she power into it? Or does she slow me down? And once I have stepped her forward right then side left, does she become heavy, telling me she doesn't want to go to the usual resolution (the cross)? Perhaps she powered onto her left foot in the side step, transferring her weight and opening the door for me to do something entirely different than I may have had in mind? Etc.

    Yes, this could simply be "bad following", but with a sensitive high level follow, it could be her giving voice in such a manner that she doesn't ignore my lead, but rather reinterprets it. And even if it is "bad following", it is a real opportunity to learn as a lead how to have a conversation.
     
  17. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    Sorry. My lack of clarity. I do agree with you that the follow does not lead. My disagreement follows the BUT. I was jut trying to point out our common ground before I viciously hurled stones - like my mum taught me. :)

    Understood. These are advanced skills and I would guess improver-level follows are indeed not there yet.
     
  18. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    lol!
     
  19. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Is there any other kind?

    Wouldn't the alternative (those who no longer improve) be LESS desirable? ;)
     
  20. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    LOL. I like that.

    And so when are you out in the west - either coast or mountain - so I can ask you for a dance?
     

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