Tango Argentino > The essence of Tango Argentino

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by jantango, Dec 5, 2009.

  1. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Several people have already summed it up better than I have. Good dancers don't always make good teachers. And what you're suggesting smacks of elitism. I know as a beginner I would want nothing to do with a board that had such a requirement.
  2. ant

    ant Member

    It does seem a bit unreasonable to use people that have established their credentials in their given sphere but are not able to perform to the level of their knowledge and then compare that to a person who has not established their credentials.

    I would also say that generally people that know what they talking about make sense when they say something to you even if you may not care for the delivery. It is generally apparent when there is someone not knowing what they talking about passing opinion in such a way that it is authorative, you know it does not sound right. To cap it all when you see that person perform in a manner that suggests a lack of knowledge that just confirms your suspicions of that person, it really can cheese you off. That is how Mario's post came across to me.

    I would go even further, if you read Marios post he it sounded to me that he was talking about people whose opinions he had not sort, he received opinions that did not make sense and to cap it all when he saw the way they danced it just annoyed him no end.

    It seems to me that he is not saying people should not have an opinion and state that opinion. Rather, a person has a responsibility to consider their qualifications/experience etc when passing an opinion and the knowledge of the person should reflect in the tone of the opinion. As you cannot trust that principle in some people maybe other ways of considering the weight he would like to attach to an opinion should be considered.
  3. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Apparently not... or I wouldn't have asked for clarification :rolleyes:

    After you clarified, I disagreed. That doesn't make it ridiculous.
    You have an opinion. When others don't share it, they're ridiculous? Whats THAT about? Sheesh.

    I DO agree that if you are dancing one style and someone tells you vehemently that you should do x and y and what you are doing is all wrong, it is helpful to know if they think you're technique is wrong or if they just think the entire STYLE is wrong.

    My teacher/partner was "corrected" by a beginner one time who told him he just needed to open the embrace more so I had room to pivot in order to exectute my ocho "properly". We were doing "crossed-back ochos" in an apilado flat-on embrace. Since this guy had never seen them , he thought they were "wrong".

    Rather than get in a huff about it, my partner talked to him about various styles.

    On the other hand, if my partner had been a beginner and therefore not aware that the other guy's comments were useless in context, then hopefully he would then go to his teacher and ask why he was teaching something different that what others say is correct. Then he could evaluate how he wanted to proceed based on his coach's info combined with other input he got from around the real life and virtual blogospheres.

    If someone makes a suggestion, and it helps your dancing , it was a good suggestion. If it doesn't help, then let it go. You don't need to see a video of someone proving their ability to implement the suggestion to decide whether they are worth listening to. You can decide by simply trying out what is offered in the way of suggestions and deciding if they help.
  4. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    But what constitutes credentials? That's the gist of MY point. Credentials as an instructor are different than credentials as a practitioner. To use the skating example I mentioned before:

    (From Wiki... edited)
    Yao Bin ... has almost single-handedly turned China into a pair skating world power.
    In the closed society of mid-20th century China, Luan and Yao had only photographs from which to learn their moves. At the 1980 World's they finished 15th (in last place). They competed at the World Championships twice more in 1981 and 1982, finishing last both times. They also placed 15th at the 84 Olympics. After these embarrassing experiences, Yao was determined to create a team of world-class figure skaters from China. (and retired from competition)

    Among Yao's current and former students are Shen and Zhao, who he coached to two Olympic bronze medals and seven World medals, (and other world level medalists)
    In 2004 Yao came full circle--at the World Championships in Dortmund, where 24 years prior he and his partner had finished last, Yao's pair teams placed 2nd, 3rd, and 5th. That year, Yao received International Figure Skating Magazine's Coach of the Year award.

    (end Wiki)

    If you evaluated Yao on the basis of his own competitive and performance skating skills, he would never be considered a good coach. Thankfully he was in an environment where this did not impede his ability to establish himself as a coach, and he has given the skating world some of the most beautiful and exciting pair teams to come along in decades, nurturing them to the very top of the sport.

    However, if you saw a video of him skating, you would probably guffaw and comment (as did the great Irina Rodnina.. one of the most decorated pairs skaters in history) that it was simply comical.
  5. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

    :(This just isn't fun anymore.
    ..not even interesting.:rolleyes:
  6. ant

    ant Member

    The point Mario was making was that what you say tells people what you know but this is sometimes masked by the manner in which a person speaks. Hence, some people talk with absolute authority but know very little and when you see them perform, this point is proven.

    Others know alot but can't express their knowledge but when you see them perform you want to try and understand what they are saying because they have the knowledge.

    You are in the lucky category of having the knowledge and being able to express it and I would hazard a guess and say that you can perform it as well.

    He obviously speaks sense and this is his proof of his knowledge. You do not need to look further.
  7. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    And other people simply see it in a different way, and disagree.
  8. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Nowhere nearly as well as I would like....
  9. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    Perhaps, not fun, but, yes, interesting. It is a perfect example of how the written word needs more care, and understanding, than the spoken word. Perhaps, we can suffice this to say that;
    • a person might certainly be a great dancer, but can not teach
    • a person might be a great teacher but can not dance
    • one does not 'have' to see a demonstration in order to decide if another knows what they are talking about (as one poster said, simply try it; if it works great; if not... great)
    • most importantly, be true to one's self (this is to say to be honest in your own knowledge. It is ok to not know something. Many consider this to be a better place than to already know, for if one does not know, then one is open to learn, gain, experience, and grow.
    Most of all, let's all remember that this is a written forum of opinion and thought. Let's try to be more tolerant of both.
  10. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Oh, if I only had more money I would argue to have an annual meeting somewhere throughout the world....
  11. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    A workshop w/e just for DF ATers would be a great idea, if we all could agree on who would teach, and what.
  12. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    bring your own buns and custard pies!
  13. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    Not sure about the pies, but my buns go wherever I go.
  14. Heather2007

    Heather2007 New Member

    Mario huns...there are many reasons why a follower would immediately go into open-embrace other than the tango. It's far easier to do that than say, have the leader disappear into the floor after having been told no. Reason: because you stink. Heh-heh-heh. :rolleyes:
  15. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Very true.

    But I would also argue that there is nothing wrong with having an understanding appropriate to your level and believing in it (so long as there is the acknowlegment that you're on a journey of sorts). I would say that a beginner might have an idea of how they understand, say, how to walk...more advanced dancers can disagree, and tell that person they are wrong, and the person in question may (probably will) change their opinion over time. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they are incorrect in their thinking at the time...merely that for them, at their level, it is what is true for them.

    Then again...people can be completely and totally off base, too. ;)
  16. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Personally speaking, I kinda wish my buns didn't...or at least not all of what I've got... :(:rolleyes:
  17. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

    OK, I'll bite. How can a Tango teacher who cannot dance (barring injury and such exceptiions) be a great Tango teacher????????? :confused:
    ...if anyone can give a believable defense of this one, I will surrender and you win! :bkick:
  18. Madahlia

    Madahlia Member

    I think this has been partially answered, by extrapolation, by Zoopsia's post concerning the figure skaters who could not skate well, but managed to train world class skaters.

    Do you not think that something similar is possible in the field of dance?
  19. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I would imagine it's the same way that many great coaches in sports were not great players. Bill Belichick, head coach of the Patriots, is one who comes to mind.
  20. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

    Oh..OK, I get it. Yes, the father of the Williams sisters is another great example.
    However, I really don't believe that it can happen in the dance as what you see and what is happening is not the same thing. OK..if Tango was a sport, and someone decided to train their two daughters to be world champs...and he/she had some personal brilliance about 'learning' and 'teaching' ..sure, I will agree that it can be done. But this doesn't happen in Tango. ..and this is exactly what I meant about
    "Now I know how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin"...it's all useless information.

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