Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Zoopsia59, Jul 30, 2010.
You hit it on the nail, Peaches.
quite right; I will no longer be practicing with my students in case they feel patronised, nor shall I dance with anyone who i regard as not as experienced as I am as they will no doubt assume i am doing it out of charity....
I quite agree. I would (Would? Hell, do!) get irritated if I think that inexperienced dancers have made no effort to learn, reflect and improve, although i don't always have insight into their motivations, of course. I also wouldn't expect a pro to give up time to dance with me if I wasn't trying hard to do the same. We all have to try to earn nice dances, not just have them handed to us on a plate -as if!
Do you realize that that sort of attitude does not help in the least? We know we're insecure. We realize that the insecurity is our problem and not others'. We realize that there's a good chance our fears are unfounded. Those realizations, however, don't make the feal and the insecurity less real.
Belittling us/potential follows for having those fears hardly helps anyone get over them.
ETA: If you don't have the same feelings of insecurity, I wonder if you can even begin to understand the self-defeating litany that starts going through your head if you're asked to dance by a vastly more skilled leader. IME, it starts with "he can't possibly be enjoying himself dancing with me as much as he would dancing with some other more-advanced woman, so he must just feeling sorry for me" and goes downhill from there.
Again, you hit it on the head exactly.
A good leader enjoys making his partner feel good.
Irrespective of either of their "levels".
I think most of us can sense this. There are some dancers who are just people persons. Even if their partner's technical level is lower than their own, they honestly enjoy the interpersonal part of dancing. It's a pleasure to dance with someone like that.
And do you think that this is why people teach ( aside from money) that they are motivated
by wanting to make people feel insecure or inferior? Its ridiculous. I was effectively taxi dancing yesterday with ladies who had had maybe between 2 and a dozen lessons. There were maybe half a dozen experienced dancers there offering encouragement and their experience alongside the teachers. And you belittle us because we are "charitable" because the polar opposite of this is elitism; dancers who wont dance with beginners.
If you arent Monica Belucci and/or can dance like Ines Mousavi then you are a charity dance. Deal with it. :lol:
I concur with this entirely and agree with you and Peaches completely. A charity dance isn't necessarily from someone vastly superior in dance skills. It could also be someone at or near your level and relates more to the idea that you can tell you are "on sufferance", as it were, by dancing with them.
I have danced with some teachers (Gustavo Saba and Robert Hauk come to mind off the bat) and their interpersonal skills are so good that self-consciousness on my part didn't really enter the picture. Meanwhile, I have danced with other instructors on occasion and clearly felt like I "got" to dance with them because I had taken privates with them or something. Even then, I'm still with Peaches, and I generally won't ask someone I feel is so high above my level that it might be an intrusion and it's not because I'm trying to be reverse snobby or anything, I'm just trying to respect them. I tend to leave it to tradition in that case and let them ask until I know how they feel.
That being said, there's a reverse side to to the pity dance also. The ones who try to dance with you because they know they can (attempt to) do certain or complicated moves with you (however poorly) and not because they actually enjoy your company.
It's very important that someone enjoy my company and me theirs.
Wow ...unless you completely meant this as a joke (which is hard to tell in an impersonal online forum).
BTM, I think it's great that you seem to be pretty gregarious and easygoing about your dances. You probably like interpersonal interaction also. And that is good. But try to understand that not every leader is like this at all....AT ALL. There are quite a few out there who are quite happy to lord it over you that they are the GIFT to the *insert your community name here* community and you should be serving them pie (or at least a very nice cake) if they deign to dance with you.
I suspect that the smiley is the tip off that it's a joke.
Yes, and there are followers like that too. Some people act like it's some sort of caste system. Me, I'm too old too care about it. Most people are either better than me or worse than me. I ask them all.
that's all too true. it goes both ways, but in tango the deck tends to be stacked against the ladies (traditionally) and despite the "code" being a bit more flexible here in the US (or outside Argentina) I tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to feeling comfortable approaching someone who is not already a "regular" on my dance card.
When somebody asks me to a dance, I assume one thing -- he does so because he wants to dance tango with me, here and now, to that music, an honest and sincere attempt to be together for 11 minutes or so, creating a good feeling, potentially, something great.
If the partner has a hidden agenda, how is it any of my problem? Why am I supposed to feel bad about it? If it somehow becomes obvious in the process, most of the time I will just laugh it off.
this is certainly a point to consider. However, I think what Peaches and Jenny and myself also are trying to say is that there are some people for whom the "attempt to create a good feeling" part is not present from the start but rather the "look I'm so special and so good for coming to ask you to dance" part is. It'd be nice if I could laugh that feeling off, but I have trouble with that.
as for the sincere leaders who are above my level and still ask me to dance,a nd are sincere about it, that is no longer a charity dance, as I mentioned originally. Just because someone above your level asks you to dance doesn't automatically make it "charity", or the reverse also. If you ask someone to dance who is below your own level, it's not necessarily charity.
Dancing with someone of a different level under the conditions you mention- respect, creating a good feeling, honest and sincere- doesn't fall under my definition of "charity". Charity is just that- they MEAN for you to know they are doing you a big favor.
I am curious, how does that manifest? Is that something specific they do or rather an interpretation?
I like this attitude. Do you want to dance or not? I realize there are insecurities to deal with, but the question is still the same. If you don't like the situation, then say "no". If you say "yes" then focus your mind on dancing.
Followers could have alternative goals also. Maybe they think someone is an jerk, but they just want to find out what it feels like to dance with him. Maybe they feel like working on their ganchos and know that a certain leader will give them plenty.
Exactly. Otherwise we could psychoanalyze each other till the cows come home.
Let's see...soem of this is interpretation, and so subjective, but if a leader asks me to dance who is at or above my skill level, then proceeds to do such things as (partial list follows):
constantly readjust his embrace, possibly combined with becoming or feeling tense while dancing (which I often interpret as displeasure since if they are at or above my level it's probably not nerves/fear) and if this increases with mistakes I may make, interact as little as possible during the tanda and can't get away fast enough when it is done, then I tend to presume I was probably the recipient of a "charity" dance of some sort and that it is not that they actually wanted to share a dance (or at least became that way), but they felt they had to for whatever reason unbeknown to me.
It's just been my experience that people that remain friendly from beginning to end of tanda despite whatever may go wrong, generally aren't dancing out of charity but as a genuine attempt to connect and enjoy.
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