Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Zoopsia59, Jul 30, 2010.
i like that! but it sort of leaves it with out a name!
there's alot to be said for the term social....being social doesn't just mean being in the presence of people, IMO...it means displaying a set of qualities that lend themselves to civility and pleasantness and decency in both the offering of dances and in accepting them...IMO the time to ruminate over motives, if one really must do that (which I think is largely folly particularly in the moment) is to wait until one gets home.... and then one can be as obsessive and insecure and neurotic as one likes
"Social" is nice. What about "Supportive" dances, or "Friendship" dances?
I'm just saying that it's a burden for me, as a leader, to try to make all of my partners feel "fantastic". 1) If my partner knows full well that the dance was not fantastic, she knows I'm telling a tale. 2) Not all dances are fantastic, regardless of the quality of the follower, and I reserve the right to react in a genuine manner.
I haven't heard any followers say it's their job to make their leaders feel fantastic. And, I'm not interested in an evening of everybody trying to make everyone else feel fantastic. Tango is not theater, for me. It's a genuine expression, through body language.
I like to dance with partners who are learning and I don't feel - don't want to feel - that I have any obligation to make them feel anything. I just want to help them, and I hope they appreciate it. If I dance with a partner who is struggling, she probably knows too that she was struggling, and I don't want to pretend otherwise.
(edit) If a dance is fantastic, I want my partner to feel fantastic, and not because I acted like it was. I find that artificial.
No. Stick with social.
The curse of modern living is the decision to confuse manners with "being fake".
I will gather my manners and make no further comment.
I am fairly certain that nothing in my post implied that anyone should have to either feel fantastic or make the other person feel fantastic...in fact I am positive that I didn't say anything even remotely close to that..
personally, when I social dance I try to be friendly, make the lead's job as easy as possible, and graciously thank him afterward...I do that regardless of his skill, his personality, his odor or any other factor...and I personally have no expectation of him other than he not be overtly rude...for myself, no one is responsible for making me feel wonderful other than myself...it cuts down on alot of disappointment
I think a Peaches already made commentary about "faking it", which is not what we are talking about. But more about just enjoying what comes up. No, it may not be your best or most fantastic dance of the evening, but to end up making someone feel crappy about a dance you just had with them just because you didn't like it IMO is not social.
And no, I don't think it's about only making the follower feel good, but this is a thread for what followers are looking for in a partner- the ability/willingness to make another person feel good or enjoy them without judgment or egotism. Feeling fabulous has degrees. It doesn't mean tango bliss every time (which is impossible) but can be as simple as going away from a dance with a person not feeling "less" about yourself than before you started.
I accept a dance with someone of greater or lesser ability and *try* to keep my approach the same- enjoy them and what they offer, at least until it becomes apparent they aren't enjoying what I have to offer...
agree ...edit to add; not every authentic feeling is worthy of inflicting upon others
That's because this is the "Why do women want to dance with certain guys" thread. It is a response to the thread on why men dance with certain women. The thread topic is narrow and specific, and that's how I intended it when I started it. (Of course I think it's a 2-way street, but that wasn't this discussion!) You guys had the chance to mention these sorts of things in the other thread about why you prefer certain partners, but now that we say they're important to US, you're saying "double standard"?
My assertion from the beginning, and I stand by it, is that women prefer the partners who leave them feeling good, not the ones who leave them feeling crappy (duh) and that result has a great deal to do with the guy's attitude, and less to do with his dance skill than leaders often suppose.
This should be GOOD news to you guys!
So it's baffling to me that in trying to give the guys a hint about something that is completely within their control regardless of experience or skill level, that so many leaders are quibbling over it!
Seriously! Guys look at our darn shoes to judge us, but folks are quibbling because we want men to have a respectful, courteous, engaged and fun ATTITUDE? Really? That's asking too much of a dance partner?
All it takes is making sure the other person remains more important than the damn dance steps. The dance doesn't have to be fantastic for the experience to be.
No wonder I sometimes feel like throwing in the towel on this hobby!
I think the objection is to the perhaps not intended but easily perceived implication that there's an obligation to turn a dance with an irresponsibly bad partner into a good experience for them.
Yes, but someone who wants to maintain respect in a dance community will need to show some respect for the dancing, too.
Based on your other comments, I would bet that you, personally get that. But some of what you have said can be mis-interpeted as expecting others (and it really doesnt matter which role) to be divinely accomodating of those who display an ongoing disrespect for the dancing.
I don't remember anyone, let along me, suggesting that a disrespect for the dancing, especially an ongoing one should even be tolerated, much less rewarded! Nor did I mention anything about irresponsibly bad followers.
I only remember talking about skill and experience levels, not actual disrespect of the dance. How exactly does one "disrespect the dance" without disrespecting any dancers anyway? I'm not even sure what that means. It should be clear by now that I'm totally against disrespecting the PEOPLE, so....
Could you post some examples of things I said that you feel could give this impression so that I can address the issue or change my wording in the future to avoid giving such an impression? Also, it would help me understand what you mean by "displaying an ongoing disrespect for the dance", because that certainly doesn't sound like the sort of thing I would condone.
personally I think the thread should stay on topic instead of veering off into the personal and the absurd...
No, I don't think you would condone disrespect for dancing (and believe I specifically acknowledged that).
But when you said the leader's reaction was under his control, that could be interpreted as suggesting that his reaction to someone who shows irresponsible disrespect for the dancing should be something he can fully control to the point of making her feel special.
I don't think you meant that, but one can (mis)read that into your comment.
well...if one is determined enough...
still, in a social venue, IMO a person is simply daft if they intend to hold onto notions of maintaining the integrity of a dance and not allowing it to be disrespected...and I am rather in the camp that in a partner dance, particularly in a social venue, respecting the partner is primary to respecting the dance......
and now...how about we continue to allow this thread to be about what women look for in a lead?
I said his ATTITUDE is under his control.
I meant mostly the attitude he goes INTO the tanda with, and perhaps that's where I was unclear.
It is, I admit, difficult to react positively to someone else who has a terrible attitude of their own. But that's different from having a negative reaction or attitude because their dancing isn't what one had hoped.
And certainly his behavior is under his control regardless of how the other person dances or acts. If it's not, he has no business engaging in something as intimate and interactive as Argentine social tango.
I'm still not clear on what you mean by "irresponsible disrespect for the dancing" as a thing separate from disrespecting the dancers.
Edited to say, if the mods don't wish to see that further discussed on this thread, you can PM me, because I would like to know what you mean.
If you are going to dismiss what the other side says as absurd, you are going to have a hard time understanding the source of their reactions to comments that you see as entirely reasonable.
What should be blatantly obvious here is that each side is contemplating what the other side is saying not in reference to the person who is saying it, but in reference to some of the worst situations they've run into at dances.
That's the problem with making simple rules - they lack the exceptions and contingencies needed to be livable.
Because you didn't state that case an an exception, you left it up to the reader's assumption. Now I happen to think you seem like a reasonable person who would agree that its a two way street, but there wasn't actual an exception in your post to give the guys a break on the more impossible cases.
Each partner has obligations in the dance, to their partner, which grow with their experience. Respecting the dance and the partner requires that one not be dismissive of these. I don't for a minute think you are, but everyone has run into plenty of examples of others who are.
OK, but that answer still doesn't explain what "respecting the dance" means and how it is different from respecting the other person. It just repeats the phrase and that it is important to do.
I'm hammering on this for 2 reasons:
1) to make sure I understand your point.
2) to make sure we aren't getting into the territory of what are and aren't acceptable ways to dance AT. (you mentioned "integrity of the dance" in a post) I know you are an experienced ballroom dancer, but I'm not clear on your experience with AT and that, for most people and in many communities, it has fewer "rules" that must be respected to maintain its "integrity" as a dance form. I don't want to debate those rules here because there is no consensus even on this forum, and it's totally OT for the thread.
IF that is the sort of thing you mean by respecting the dance and the integrity of the dance, then it doesn't really apply to what I'm talking about on this thread.
I'm surprised this simple statement is being interpreted so many ways. It makes perfect sense to me. All we're talking about here is one person wanting their interaction with another person to be a warm, friendly, respectful and happy experience. No different on a dance floor than in another other segment of life.
Apologies, for I haven't carefully perused this whole thread.
But, the rough anatomy of such threads that I've seen in the past:
1. wonderful things about leaders
2. specific good things good leaders do
3. things that are expected from leaders
4. bad things that good leaders don't do
5. bad things about bad bleaders
6. minimum qualities followers are entitled to expect from leaders
7. what leaders owe followers
8. whoa, we got here from there?!?
I'm a guy, so I have a leader-centric view. I surely believe that there's an equivalent degeneration of commentary from leaders from a follower's perspective.
This all just seems so fruitless to me. If you want to be a successful participant in the dance community: never stop learning, do your best to be gracious and sociable towards your fellow dancers, and cut them some slack on their off nights for you will have your own.
ETA: ...and be patient with yourself and with your fellow dancers. Dancing can be an undertaking fraught with emotionalism, particularly for the first few years.
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