Tango Argentino > The top 5 reasons a woman wants to dance with a specific man

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Zoopsia59, Jul 30, 2010.

  1. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    That's pretty much what I've been trying to say. The only reason its from the follower's perspective about leaders is because we have 2 threads going.. one for what makes a man choose a partner, and what makes a woman choose a partner.

    So since the other thread was gender specific based on women wondering how important looks are to men, I deliberately made this one to divide by gender as well, and not by dance role.

    It is only because of the common social pattern in dancing that it became about leaders and followers. I was trying to make it a clue for MEN about what is important to WOMEN. The women who chimed in all happen to be primarily followers, but that wasn't my primary intention.
     
  2. DL

    DL Well-Known Member

    po-TAY-to po-TAH-to
     
  3. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    I'm not sure they are really seperable for me in a dancing context. Perhaps as a result I sometimes have enjoyable conversations with people at events, without asking them to dance.

    I don't recall using the word integrity, but perhaps I did. I think that each dance (or subcommunity within one) has aspects on which it places high value, and that while they will be different between dances and preferences, the idea that they exist will be common.

    But I think I can make the point at a much more fundamental level: just as we have communication etiquette for how we converse with others about dancing in words or body language, there is also physical etiquette in the conduct of the dance itself, that reduces to the same rule - don't make the other person uncomfortable!

    Because we haven't been trained in the technique of physical etiquette by the rest of life, we have to be more tolerant of physical faux pas... but I do think it reasonable to expect that a concept of physical etiquette (even if never named) be at the core of a partner's dancing.
     
  4. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    Yes, i am familiar with that concept of "Charity"; "I am giving you something therfore you MUST be grateful"

    Quite honestly i quit worrying about what my motives might be, since they'ree never going to be as selfless as I would like and once I am dancing then I'm just dancing as DChester said there's always better and worse dancers than me.
     
  5. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Jayzuz H. Christ on a crutch!

    What seemed like a simple idea...which most people seem to be in agreement with...and 11 pages of bickering about things. Good lord.
     
  6. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    It is a simple idea, and probably a practical hope for those participating in the thread.

    But to generalize it to everyone in the dance world, and explain some of the reactions that. have resulted, it might be useful to put it in the context of another simple idea:

    Don't expect to get more from dancing and the dance community than you put into it.

    I want to state clearly that I don't think the people participating in this thread have that problem. But the people here are not a comprehensive representation of event attendance, which does include examples of both men and women who have put themselves into that difficulty. And memories of those sutuations are a component of some of the responses to the simple idea at the top of the thread.
     
  7. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    don't worry about it zoop...it's your thread...and besides, it is clear that it is impossible to moderate it anyhow :)
     
  8. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    From my perspective, some of your statements are so general in nature, that they could mean many different things. What Zoopsia, and now myself, are trying to figure out is "exactly" what you are talking about.

    A good start would be, what did you mean when you said, "respecting the dance"? If you don't want to elaborate on what you mean, fair enough, but just realize that what ever point you are trying to make, isn't being clearly understood.
     
  9. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    Respecting that partner dance is a challenging subject that requires personal investment if one wants to continue to have a good time.

    What form that investment needs to take is specific to a given style within a given dance and even subjective in that someone who feels it should have been in a different direction may not fully credit your investment (so dance with someone more compatible instead).

    But generally, the needed investment would be in physical skills that make dancing easier for the person you are dancing with.

    One can't really show full respect for a partner and a joint project of dancing together without putting some consideration into the needs of that project, both during it and in habitually preparing for it.
     
  10. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    I'm going to paraphrase marshall Rosenberg here ( see full quote below)

    Would you like to dance? Please only say yes, only if you can do so with the joy of a little child feeding a hungry duck. Please do not dance as I request if there is any taint of fear of punishment if you don't. Please do not dance with me to buy my love, that, is hoping that I will love you more if you do. Please do not dance with me if you will feel guilty if you don't. Please do not dance with me if you will feel shameful. And certainly do not dance out of any sense of duty or obligation.

    Whenever you make a request of someone, hand them a little card which says this on it: "Please do as I requested, only if you can do so with the joy of a little child feeding a hungry duck. Please do not do as I request if there is any taint of fear of punishment if you don't. Please do not do as I request to buy my love, that, is hoping that I will love you more if you do. Please do not do as I request if you will feel guilty if you don't. Please do not do as I request if you will feel shameful. And certainly do not do as I request out of any sense of duty or obligation." -- Marshall Rosenberg
     
  11. ant

    ant Member

    Please forgive me if I am wrong but it sounds like you are talking about a fixed partner for an agreed project over a long period of time.

    Which compares with dancing a Tanda (three or maybe four tracks) with potentually any attendee and maybe never dancing with them again.

    I don't understand the correlation.
     
  12. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    No, I'm actually talking more from the perspective of single dances than lasting partnerships. Even if it lasts 30 seconds, can't we still consider it a joint project that in the long run requires effort both during and in preparation?

    An unprepared beginner may be able to walk into an event and have a great time. But if they want to continue having great times, either there or even elsewhere where they are unknown, they are going to have to start doing some work.

    (This is because we have a history - even where we are unknown, we carry it inside us in a way that influences what we enjoy, and aspects of it leak out to influence how even strangers perceive us)
     
  13. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    So you're basically talking about people who don't improve? If you don't know the people, how are you supposed to know whether or not they are putting effort into improvement or whether they have improved?

    It's sorta like seeing an overweight person on the street and judging them for not being thinner... for all you know, they've been diligently dieting and exercising and have lost 75 lbs!

    If you DO know the person, and have determined that they are making no improvement (and you have knowledge that they are not putting in any effort to do so) why would you choose to dance with them?

    If they aren't improving and are making a serious effort, then your judgment is not in the spirit of social dancing and those people are better off not dancing with you anyway... they're probably already frustrated and depressed enough about their dancing and the plateau they've gotten stuck at.

    This is a thread about what makes women enjoy dancing with a man... If you aren't even dancing with a woman, the question is moot. If you ARE dancing with a woman despite her being as above, then you need to do it with a good attitude.

    Maybe your response would have made more sense in the "Why do men ask women to dance" (or not ask them) thread.

    If you don't know the person, you can't know how much effort they are investing into their improvement, and if you do know them and feel they aren't putting in effort that satisfies you, then you probably aren't going to ask them to dance... so the whole idea is irrelevant to this thread.
     
  14. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Zoops, it's possible he also thinks a woman would reject the guy, if he doesn't "respect the dance".
     
  15. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    This may be more of an issue in Ballroom, as I said before.. In AT, chances are that there will be multiple styles represented at a milonga and there is a very good chance you will dance with quite a few people who are better at some styles than others, and may prefer a different style than the one their partner wants to use. We all have to deal with that all the time in AT. It may be a reason that some people choose certain partners, but most of the followers I know, regardless of their preference, make an effort to become profficient in as many styles as possible so they will have more opportunities to dance. In fact, typically the women are capable in far more styles than the guys.

    I really don't think the fact that a follower might have developed in a different way or is not as good as you hoped in a particular style is an excuse to change your attitude mid-dance. Once again, that implies that its ok to have a bad attitude towards the person you're dancing with based on their dance skills. I just don't think that's a reasonable way to approach social dancing.

    In fact, its exactly the opposite of what I feel is important, and what I said at the beginning of this thread... that a guy's attitude is at least, if not more, important to a woman than his dance ability. If a woman's dance ability gives the guy a legitimate reason to have a bad attitude, no wonder so many women are frustrated with their dance scene!

    This "Dance is serious business!" concept doesn't always go over very well on the average social scene.
     
  16. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    Nothing I have said in this thread is limited to one gender.
     
  17. Bailamosdance

    Bailamosdance Well-Known Member

    You can always tell if people are improving or trying to improve before you set foot on the dance floor; they will usually tell you on the way...


    statements from dancers who are not trying to improve their dancing (or wil likely not improve over the time you know them)

    I learned on the dance floor
    I hate xxxx style (usually International LOL)
    What's the basic step?
    I just follow
    What do you mean, put my pocketbook away?
     
  18. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    There are styles of partner dancing, and then there are ways of immitating partner dance movements that are not about the partner, or are about taking without giving back. It's the latter two I am primarily talking about.

    In the other case, if people realize they just aren't compatible, they should probably not try dancing together again. Doesn't mean they can't be friendly or even be friends.

    There's a key difference between having ability and takingresponsability.


    In answer to your previous question about strangers, you reveal more of your history than you realize - not with perfect reliability, but there's still a lot there. And even when its a mystery to others, it influences what you enjoy.
     
  19. ant

    ant Member

    I would not look at a single dance or tanda in this way. When I dance at a Milonga I dance for the moment and I also think that my partner is as well.

    What effort my partner may have put in before that dance or after that dance is not really my affair.

    Although where I get a strong impression that, that partner may be expecting a lot more preparation than she feels I have made and this makes me feel uncomfortable, I would probabally not ask her to dance again.
     
  20. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    I would add that if you are someone who has found long term enjoyment in the world of partner dance, and what I'm calling "taking responsability" seems foreign, it's probably because you do so instinctively without having to think about it.
     

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