Timing: Quick Open Reverse, Double Reverse Spin,Overspin

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by DanceMentor, May 3, 2012.

  1. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    Assuming the man is starting the quick open reverse on 1 on his right foot, and the DRS and overspin is followed by a line figure, what timing would you recommend or prefer?
     
  2. Mengu

    Mengu Active Member

    My mind was on quickstep, since we just worked on this in quickstep, and didn't quite know what you were asking, but then I realized, you're probably talking about waltz.

    1&23&, 12&3& is most intuitive to me.

    Now I'm going to put words in the mouths of 3 different instructors, on what they would tell me.

    Instructor #1: Blend the & of the reverse pivot with the 1 of the double reverse, so the beats are closer together, and not evenly split. Also the & of the overspin at the end should be quicker than the half beat might indicate, using the rotation of the double reverse spin, as well as giving you more time to land and go into the picture line with better balance.

    Instructor #2: You need the most time for the slip pivot, why are you trying to do it on an &. Dance it 1&2&3. Also if you wait for the 2 for your double reverse, your partner is not going to be happy with the heel turn, get to it faster. If it feels like 1& instead of 12, it's fine. Regardless, she's going to be dancing 12.

    Instructor #3: Anything is possible. Find out what works best for you, feels comfortable and looks good. First decide if you want to dance the figure more rotational, or more linear. For some couples linear looks better, for others, rotational is better. Based on that choice you may or may not use one timing or the other.
     
  3. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    On the quick open reverse on step 2 it is often danced with a heel lead (and this is somewhat the design of the step). And step 1 being the 1 beat is naturally a heel lead. If we dance 1& for the first 2 steps, we potentially have a quick that is a heel lead. What do you think about this?
     
  4. muyv

    muyv Member

    We do 1&23&, 1&2&3. (I think. sometimes I discover that my partner and I are not dancing the same timing :p )
    Not sure if I have a well thought out reason, but this is how we do it, and I believe that the last pivot step being a slow is a little easier for me.
     
  5. muyv

    muyv Member

    confused? so the girl is always doing 12 for the double reverse? Then how does she do the slip pivot on a slow?
     
  6. Joe

    Joe Well-Known Member

    I dance the QOR 1&2&3. The DRS overspin is 12&3&.

    Yes. The normal timing is 12&3. Why should it be any different if you add the overspin on the (3)&?
     
  7. Mengu

    Mengu Active Member

    Scratch that. Instructor #2 is saying dance the quick open reverse pivot 12&3&, because the first step needs the most time (though, in 6 months, he might say something else).

    Step 2 is a heel lead in quickstep, but it seems to be of debate for waltz. I've been told by several instructors that a toe lead is correct for the second step of the quick open reverse in waltz, and they teach the 1& timing. I tried it around the house a few times, and can't come up with a mechanical reason as to why this is the case. I seem to be able to dance it just as comfortably on a heel. I see some people dancing it on a toe and some on a heel, and neither screams wrong to me. The first step obviously needs to be HT, if I'm dancing a T for the second step.

    I also just watched Arunas a few times, and he seems to prefer 12&3& timing, and uses a heel step on step 2. And there are plenty of examples for 1&23& timing. I don't think there is one right way for this step.

    It's not different. What Instructor #2 is talking about, is to get to a split weight position slightly before 2 (which makes the heel turn much clearer for the lady), and complete the weight transfer on 2. Timing is still 12&3, but might feel like 1&-&3. With to the quicker rise for the heel turn, the right leg can fly out ahead and arrive its destination slightly before the 2, so this all makes sense to me.
     
  8. Josh

    Josh Active Member

    I dance the QOR and pivot as: 12&3&
    Overspin as: 12&3&

    Heel on first two steps of QOR (which makes sense due to the timing)
     
  9. Josh

    Josh Active Member

    She wouldn't -- it would be on a quick, if quicks are half a beat, and slows are a whole beat as in this case. Many slip pivots (I should say pivots in general) are done on a half beat.
     
  10. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    Yes, this is the timing we are using too.
     
  11. randomaeiou

    randomaeiou Member

    Wouldn't it depend on the music? How many notes **not beats - that's fixed!** in the particular bar, and the distribution? (Or if a vocal rather than instrumental piece - how many syllables in that particular bar and whether you are at the start or end of the singer's or instrument's breathing phase (instrument breathing phase = blowing out for wind instruments, or bowing for string instruments, or pedalling for piano)?)

    Quick open reverse could be 1&2&3, 12&3&, 1&23&, or even 12&a3 (There are probably quite a number of more obscure combinations, but those are the most intuitive of the lot and will fit most of the music out there) - it really depends on which beat (and which action) you want to emphasize, and the overall trajectory/acceleration/deceleration of body flight you wish to create over that particular bar, the decision which in turn should be informed by the particulars of the music at that point?

    From personal experience, depending on your follower - this much variety (to them it's uncertainty) could lead to grumpiness! But if you don't tell them and just dance to the music, they don't usually notice unless it's specifically pointed out that you just totally changed the timing (assuming proper lead and mechanics, and picking a non-jarring timing wrt music ofc).
     
  12. Terpsichorean Clod

    Terpsichorean Clod Moderator

    Like! :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
     
  13. Joe

    Joe Well-Known Member

    I like having the whole beat for the slip pivot to prepare for the next step.
     
  14. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    I almost always advocate for 1&2 when syncopating... leaving ful beats towards the end of a pattern, in this case the slip.
    But perhaps that is because I teach men... who are, in the beginning, rather inept and often late to lead patterns. Forcing them to use the half beat early on insures that the lead will at least happen sometimes during the pattern, even if not right at the beginning... so I have a half a chance to actually be lead.
     
  15. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    this is how we do it as well
     
  16. randomaeiou

    randomaeiou Member

    Makes a lot of sense, but 1 question: when (if ever) do the training wheels come off?
     
  17. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    Probably when they are smart enough to ask.
     
  18. muyv

    muyv Member

    oh, I'm so glad this question was asked. Realized that my timing on double reverse was wrong! I had been trying to do it as 1&23. blush.

    So does the double reverse overspin part only have 1 possible time (12&3&), or is it actually possible/legitimate to change to different timings?
     
  19. randomaeiou

    randomaeiou Member

    Few exceptions aside, a couple can make about 180 degrees of turn on any given step, often less for comfort.

    This 180 degree turning step can take a slow, a quick, a & or a "a". Each halving of the allotted time to complete the action:
    a) doubles rotational speed
    b) halves time to initiate, lead and complete the action

    (Much the same can be said of any other step in any other figure in any other dance, really)

    Double reverse spin-overspin has 360+180 degrees of rotation, spread over (up to 5) steps, although the first step usually does not rotate. How you choose to split your timing will change how quickly you rotate, and where you need to prolong other beats to keep in time, but in waltz, end of the day, you have 1 bar of 3 beats to divide as you will (as a couple!), n'est-ce pas?

    Classic DRS = 12&3, overspin on (3)&. Dancing DRS 1&23 creates VERY fast rotation at the start of the DRS but allows a "hanging" on 3, assuming overspin still on (3)&, or an emphasis on the compression action if DRS 1&2& then overspinning on 3... Artistic choice, again, dependent on music? (Assuming sufficient skill to execute ;)) Heck, if you want to really hang on the end of the DRS, dance it 1&2&(hold 3&)a! (Definitely not so good for entering lines which will stop the VERY fast rotation created by overspinning on "a")
     
  20. muyv

    muyv Member

    Thanks for the post Randomaeiou!

    For double reverse over spin, I do 1&2&3, for the reason that I can then do the over spin on the whole count of 3, make it a little easier for me to get around and get ready to step out properly for the next driving step of the line figure.

    Another reason that I like this is that I have a tendency to switch to left foot on heel turns too early (I'm dancing follower's part), this kinda help to eliminate that problem as problem because I need to move the weight on left foot anyway at the &. Maybe this is kinda cheating, and I will need to work out the root problem still in my feather step, but at least one less thing to worry about here.

    Yeh, agree that this should be done based on music, rather than set in stone. But... I'm still on the stage of trying to dance the same timing as my partner, so we'll worry about that later.

    The interesting thing is we have been dancing this figure for a while, and I didn't really have problem following partner's timing, without clearly aware what timing my partner is trying to do.... A lot more to work on...
     

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