Tango Argentino > Toe leads for every step for the man?

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by LordBallroom, Feb 3, 2013.

  1. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Yep, same here. Ball of the foot when using that kind of step.
  2. Mladenac

    Mladenac Well-Known Member

    The pair at the right at the beggining of the video.
    He has dark suite, and she has white dress.
  3. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    Well the song is interesting because it is so atypical of the dire stuff that usually passes for BR tango music. In the example I gave, the comp. is over (they won) and it was a brief exhibition dance, intended to entertain the audience. In the example below, which is away from the competitive floor and is a demonstration of 'basic' BR tango, danced by Mirko & his former parter, Alessia (they were both professional world champions at the time) the emphasis is different, and the music more in the usual style. It is still stunningly good dancing (in its style): and I'm not asking anyone to like it, just to recognise the degree of skill present in its execution.

    Competitive dancing always pushes things to the limit (any competition does), and social dancing is not like this, although just about everything they demonstrate is 'basic' in the sense that it may well be within the capability of an advanced social dancer, but you won't see execution of this standard very often. The idea that AT is danced competitively at all, and the implicit expectation that we are supposed to admire or look up to the successful dancers as they seek to clone themselves all over the world on their teaching tours, makes me want to wretch (almost), and for me, it largely destroys the claim of the dance to any sort of real integrity. Flash for cash?

    As for the AT competition, what was the elevator music of the first song (before Cafe Dominguez)? If you played that at my local milonga, I'd sit down?

  4. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    For me, there is an essential difference.

    If I want to improve in any dance style, I practise. Both solo and with a partner. If I want to improve something, or acquire a new technique, or familiarity with a new action or type of movement, then deliberate practise is my usual starting point. My aim is to be able to reproduce the movement, later, to have it in the bag, so to speak, so that I can use it when it seems right.

    What I don't want to do in most styles, and with AT in particular, is to rehearse set piece figures with any particular partner to the point that they become sterile or like clockwork. Sure, I want to have the mechanics of an action completely ingrained in my body, but the dancing that satisfies (a rare treat) is to be dancing with someone of a similar standard where we both bring our skills, experience and musicality, and create the dance in the moment in direct response to the music. The more regularly I dance with the same partner, the more likely I am to start performing, if only for her. It isn't why I dance.
    JohnEm and Mladenac like this.
  5. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    This sounds perfect to me.

    I understand not wanting to perform. I don't understand what you mean by "...start performing, if only for her". Can you elaborate? How does dancing more regularly with a perfect partner cause you to start performing?
  6. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I have no real argument with you about the differences between a performance (or a competition), vs social dancing.

    I just don't understand why people seem to have an issue with artists trying to make a living (and maybe it's just me that's weird on this subject). I know that I like to be able to sleep inside and eat everyday. Thus I don't have a problem it performers want to make some money by teaching, so they can do the same.

    I take it that you're not a fan of Pugliese. Assuming I'm talking about the same song as you, it's called La Tupungatina, and I do occasionally play it (typically I'd use it somewhere in the last hour of the milonga).

    FWIW, you're not alone in not liking to dance to Pugliese (although I love it). Even in BsAs, I noticed that less people would be on the dance floor for a Pugliese tanda. I have to admit, this is the first time I've ever heard it referred to as elevator music, though. One of these days I'll have to put a Pugliese tanda with this song, into the Tanda thread.

    I like this song much better than the other one. I'd say the one thing that does interest me about their dance is some of their turns. At the end of the day, the reality is that I just don't know enough about this art to have an opinion of any merit.

    I prefer to let others criticize things that they don't know anything about (and then maybe have some fun with them).
  7. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    I just mean that if we have practised particular moves, so that we are just recreating what amounts to rehearsed choreography, then I might as well be performing, and indeed, a private performance is what we arguably have. I want all the freshness of improvisation, where my partner brings her own contribution, and where neither of us really knows where the dance is going. The more you dance with anyone, the less there is to discover.
  8. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    My objection isn't to performers performing, although I'd prefer to see them do it on the theatrical stage, rather than spoil an otherwise enjoyable Milonga. My objection is to what and how they teach, and that a significant proportion of the tango community seem to be irrationally in thrall to them, as though they were some species of superior being. They sell a view of tango that is basically false, at least as much as it relates to social dancing. I am forced to conclude that most teacher/performers just don't dance socially.

    Actually, no, I love Pugliese, but just didn't recognise it! There is a lot of reverb in the video sound, and the tonal balance is very different from the original too: it sounds more like some pastiche late Fresedo, gone wrong, although the Pugliese beat is there, of course. I have just gone back and watched that dance again, and I think that because I was concentrating on the visual impression the dancers made on me, I unfairly dismissed the music. My eyes saw automata dancing to elevator music (that is no way to dance to Pugliese, surely?), so I heard elevator music. Oh well!
  9. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    For me, the better my partner and I know each other the easier it is to leave behind those common sequences and go where we've never been before.
    tangomonkey likes this.
  10. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    Yes, I can see how that could work, but it hasn't been my own experience so far.
  11. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I guess I don't consider it false, but merely a different style. Similarly, some people consider nuevo to be false, where again, I consider it to just be different.

    I actually try to put elements of both of those styles into my personal style (of course it's very much dependent on the music, how much gets in).

    Some milongas like Sunderland, you will see many dancers going for that VU style, although not likely to be as good as the people in the competition. Now in the downtown milongas in BsAs, (much more crowded), you won't see much of that style at all.

    I think we're very similar (but in a opposite sort of way).

    I have trouble enjoying a dance if I hate the music. It seems like you have trouble enjoying the music if you hate the dance.
  12. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    I think you nailed it. it is elevator music though it is Pugliese. it's a pretty lifeless piece 0f nothing. I wouldn't dance to it or play it at a milonga, unless I wanted to clear the floor, or get everyone to go home..:p
  13. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    Perhaps this is why dchester uses it in the last hour of a milonga? ;)
    dchester and bordertangoman like this.
  14. LadyLeader

    LadyLeader Active Member

    Because the follower had Asian look I checked their (couple 26) background more. I understood that they were the winners - Correct?

    Milongueros del Mundo 2012
    1. Naoko Tsutsumizaki & Cristian Andres Lopez
    2. Carlina Bianchi & Samuel Scalco
    It seems that the good tango is on import in BsAs, partly anyhow, she is from Japan and they are working there.

    Here a performance in Seoul.

    (It is nice to know that the announced performers for this year's Seoul festival will not be kicking at me! More traditional ones)
  15. Gssh

    Gssh Well-Known Member

    I think this cuts pretty much to the core of this discussion: Championship style, VU (and i think there are already signs that Championship style is diverging from VU),centro, nuevo, milonguero, whatever anybody calls anything are all valid. All of them can contribute to ones dance, all of them have highly skilled, artistic proponents who have thought and practiced long and hard to do what they are doing the best way possible.

    To detour into another thread: I somewhat agree, somewhat disagree with the definition that was offered in the other thread about the difference between nuevo: "Milonguero uses crossed ochos, salon uses pivoted ochos, nuevo uses overturned ochos" - while this is true in the sense that these different styles use different vocabulary, the big difference seems to me to be why they use that different vocabulary - it is a fuction of what they are trying to do in the end: Milonguero thrives in packed milongas, Salon thrives in spacious milongas, nuevo thrives at practicas (i.e. when two people play with each other and the music, without the constraint of having to move with the rhythm of a crowd in the line of dance listening to traditional tango music). So in some way you could claim milonguero is the most universal, as you can use it in the most constrained of the environments, or you could claim that nuevo is the most universal because it can use techniques of all the other genres and more because it is not defined by limitations.)
    Fantasia thrives in performances, and now championship dancing wins competitions - and people in the different genres will work hard on doing more that will make them better in their own genre.

    A lot of these skills are somewhat universal, but not all of them are - some are actually activly bad if you are in different circumstances -, and for experienced people who know that "whatever" is a part of a different genre learning about it and adapting it to the genre they are at home in is one of the most valuable thing any dancer can do. As soon as we get into the "what is the "right" way to do something" question - and the "who should i learn from" question - it gets considerably murkier. I don't think anybody begrudges teachers making a living, but sometimes i feel people should label what they are teaching more accessibly for beginners and intermediate people. "This class is will teach you great things for performances, that will be somewhat applicable on open dancefloor, but won't work on crowded ones" "This class will teach you great technique to cover space on open dancefloor, but not really visually interesting enough for performances, and it is illegal under championship rules. It works pretty well on tight danfloors too" "This class is championship legal, and also offers something for anybody who wants to do travelling turns". I think in the end the community will have to admit that we are often doing something different from each other, and that maybe not all technque is universal for all circumstances.

    I feel we are somewhat where body building/strenght training/strong man circus acts/functional strength were around the turn of the last century. Today if i want to start working with weights i know i will get very different advice from an olympic weight lifter than from a body builder, and if i read about nutrition i know that being able to see my veins pop - though it is important for body building - is not a factor when i am lifting to strenghten my core to avoid backpain from too much sitting badly. And the functional strenght guys (and the ones ripping decks of cards into halves) go on and on about grip strenght as the most important thing, and so on, and so on. But they know what part of the field that used to be called "physical culture" they are in, and who is close to them, and who isn't, and what ideas are universal, and which ones are not. (of course they still think their own genre is the only "real" one, and other ones are "false" - human nature ;) )

    Mladenac likes this.
  16. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Ummm, let's just say that La Tupungantina is challenging, mostly in the softer, "where did the beat go," sections. But, with the right partner I love dancing to this. Without a partner who can respond to the changes in dynamics, and can control their movement at very slow speeds, I wouldn't even attempt it.
    As I remember it, these sorts of challenging pieces come in late in the evening when all the beginners are supposed to have gone home. (and that is not meant to be a critique of any one - it's just not every AT dancer's cup of tea)
  17. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Aren't you the guy who thinks Tom Waits is a good singer?

  18. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    it challenges me to stay awake, yawn...;)
  19. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    ad hominem

    I certainly do...[​IMG]

    I take my elevator music seriously too, its not good enough for an elevator..:p
  20. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    Oh I enjoy his music, but I'd be the first to agree that he can't sing! A bit like Marianne Faithfull, but perhaps she has the deeper voice? ;)

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