Ballroom Dance > Waltz Natural Pivot Turn

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by neakor, Dec 6, 2011.

  1. neakor

    neakor New Member

    I'm sorta confuse about natural pivot turn in waltz right now. In this video, their feet/legs are open in a flat line horizontal to their body. however, the way I learned it is that your feet should be in a scissors position, perpendicular to the body, with the pivoting leg bent and the other straight.

    can someone explain what they are doing in the video? why is that different from the syllabus pivot turn?

    thanks a lot!
  2. vit

    vit Active Member

    I'm not sure I've ever seen a couple dancing even natural spin (regarding man's part) like in the book
  3. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    I believe your description to be fairly accurate. Re the vid, the natural pivots are good (dare, I not say great). I think what you are seeing is the modern evolution of the movement to allow the pivoting action to be very wide. This gives it a look of being almost a side step rather than the trail and slipping action of tradition and the book movement. This is also more prevalent when one is dancing the natural pivot with the intermittent rise/lower rather than w/o.
  4. vit

    vit Active Member

    We should be aware that the books were written when the steps were generally much shorter, so some things from the book are hard to apply
  5. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    I would add that mostly they are doing syncopated spin turns (1&23) so that is already a difference from any syllabus pivot. I'm not sure the words "flat line" or "horizontal" completely describe what they are doing as there is plenty of rotation through the body twisting up and to the right, but this is not something you would easily observe in the video without watching carefully. I would expect you could say they also have better use of the feet rather than the legs for a more syllabus level dancer. Those are just my thoughts and describing what they do is something we could spend a long time doing. :)
  6. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    This isn't an entirely accurate definition of a pivot anyway. And there is also the introduction of the concept of pivot actions, especially within the natural pivot turn syllabus step. The forward moving person executes a pivot action and the backward moving person executes a pivot.

    And I am sure vit is pretty spot on, because of the amount of rotation and distance the couple is aiming for they are using pivot actions on both the forward and back halves. And then also because they are rotating right keeping a right positive side to their body instead of the traditional standard concept of always left side forward in dance position.
  7. neakor

    neakor New Member

    This makes a lot of sense to me. So instead of following the book, we are gonna try this now.

    Is there any tips you guys have on achieving this? This is definitely my major dance goal for waltz!

  8. Josh

    Josh Active Member

    In natural pivots, the legs are rather open. Reverse pivots have the left always in front of the right, in the "scissor" position as you describe.
  9. madmaximus

    madmaximus Well-Known Member

    I took a quick glance at the vid...

    Looks to me like they're doing the pivots by the book... except that it's adjusted for a wider stance and distance.

    [I would master the book version first then adjust it later. It'll provide a better grounding on how to do wider pivots correctly in the future and prevent learning pains]

  10. neakor

    neakor New Member

    Not according to this. The dance vision's pivots & spins dvd. BTW, i can't post the link coz i'm too new here :(

    If you look at the man's part, especially when he slows it down and explains it, his legs are clearly in a scissors position on the back half (pivot part).
  11. neakor

    neakor New Member

    My partner and I can do the "by the book" pivots quite well now. we can do 7 or 9 pivots in a row and go in a straight line or curve it however we want in a very stable and controlled manner. however, when we look at our video, our positions are very much scissor like.

    any tips on how to widen the stance?
  12. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    Only one partners legs are scissored at a time, that is pivot. The other partners legs (in a natural pattern) must be "open" in a pivot action. If you aren't familiar with that term, you should definitely look it up and ask your coach to help you with it. It is crucial to making any amount of natural pivots work.
  13. Josh

    Josh Active Member

    Maybe this description is more clear (at least it's longer):
  14. madmaximus

    madmaximus Well-Known Member


    To echo Larinda's point, if you don't know it yet, have your coach show you the difference between a "pivot movement" and a "pivot action".

    Widening stance and creating greater movement takes time to learn and understand because there are non-obvious technique involved, and is not easy to describe on text--it is best shown by a good coach.

    IMO, we are ready to learn wider pivots when we don't feel much of the centrifugal weight of our partner against our right hand when doing continuous pivots (this indicates stability, good technique, precision, and awareness of weight).

  15. neakor

    neakor New Member

    As The video I mentioned early and my instructor taught me, when you do the turn on the left foot, the pivot, the left leg is bent and right leg in front of the left leg, thus making the 2 legs into a scissors position. is this correct?
  16. neakor

    neakor New Member

    That makes sense to me. I think that is how our pivots look like right now. However, in the Arunas & Katusha video, it seems like both partners legs are always open. Is that just due to their widened stance? If so, what are some tips on achieving that?
  17. neakor

    neakor New Member

    So basically, in the video, Arunas and Katusha are just doing normal pivots with a widened stance?
  18. madmaximus

    madmaximus Well-Known Member

    When we first learn to write the letter "A" we do it as three lines.

    When a calligrapher writes the letter "A" it would have flourishes, extra lines, curves, angles, etc...

    BUT, we still recognize it as a letter "A" because the elements that make the letter, are still present.

    The basic elements in the pivot in the video are there, as specified in the book--but some have been (like the calligraphic "A") been "stretched" or "modified" to allow for greater movement.

    twothreefourone likes this.

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