Swing Discussion Boards > What is the Flying Lindy?

Discussion in 'Swing Discussion Boards' started by DanceMentor, Aug 22, 2003.

  1. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep New Member

    dean and Flying Lindy

    Dean may have responded to a questions about the Flying Lindy, But I saw Dean dance countless times at my studio and in night clubs over an seven year period and again in the early 1980's, and I NEVER saw him dance the Flying Lindy style. And If Dean knew how to do that style, he certainly would have danced it and taught it, because the Flying Lindy is one beautiful style. And as D'nice misstated that it is a fast type of Swing... Sorry D'nice. the Flying Lindy Hop can be even more aesthetic at any tempo including slow speeds at 120 bpm.
    I wasn't going to offer to describe the Flying Lindy for several reasons, one being I might be accused of advertising, but if anyone sends me the word, 'FLYING LINDY' by august 31, I will Email them personally the techniques for the 'Flying Lindy' which IS NOT an eight count dance or anything like D'nice explanation of his 'hopping skipping' rendition. The Flying Lindy is Smooth and graceful and the most exciting style of Savoy Lindy. I remember well what it looks like and I will break it down so anyone can learn it from the written word. The only pre-requisite is, you have to know how to use the 'Magic Pill, Lanza Six count teaching method.
    Email the word, 'FLYING Lindy before August 31st and I'll Email you the Magic Pill for the Flying Lindy. <d.lanza@netzero.net>
    Black Sheep, your friendly instructor
  2. SDsalsaguy

    SDsalsaguy Administrator Staff Member

    Sorry Blacksheep, but obviously Dean did not teach you everything he knew about swing if you never heard him use the term since, as funkyfreak's link points out, Dean can be seen talking about the Flying Lindy Hop.
  3. d nice

    d nice New Member

    West Coast Swing? How do you claim that those dancers in the 40's were doing West Coast Swing, when it is obvious to any student of Kinesiology, professional or amature, that the dance they are doing is most closely related to the style of Lindy done by the Savoy Dancers. There is ample irrefutable evidence of this.

    As to performannce dancing being different from social dancing.. there of course is a certain amount of showmanship that is going to come into play that could potentially change the character of the dance... however if they replace every instance of the basic step in favor of another (especially one which supposedly did not come into existence until the mid eighties) wouldn't you say they are doing a different dance?

    Or is this why you call their dance WCS? Because it does not correspond with what you remember... Is there any chance that you might either be mis-remembering, or that what you were exposed to in the fifties was in fact an altered form of something that existed two decades earlier? Any chance at all?
  4. d nice

    d nice New Member

    Interesting... I see several couples bouncing, hopping, and skipping in the Train Platform scene in "Don't Knock The Rock". I also see the two most visible couples executing eight count figures, easily recognized as the swing out and the lindy circle. Hey... you know one of them is you! So perhaps you are unfamiliar with todays terminology (which is mostly derived from Frankie Manning, who says he uses the same names he did in the thirties and forties).

    This would explain why you insist that a move you are so clearly executing in the 50's was an innovation of the 80's. What name do you call it?
  5. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep New Member

    bouncing on the train polatform!

    In, 'Don't Knoick the Rock' I am the only Swing dancer in the scene on the train platform. Those other kids are ballet dancers who maybe had a half dozen lessons at Arthurt Murray.
    I have a saying:
    " You Can't Judge the Many by the Few" Joe Lanza. 2003 a.d.
    Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.
  6. d nice

    d nice New Member

    Sorry to say it Joe... but you and your partner are bouncing, hopping, and skipping as much as everyone else on that platform... I think your definition of smooth and mine might be different.

    Should I point out that trying to walk with a book on your head actually forces your body into an unatural posture and gait, and that lindy hop in its vernacular or "street" form should endeavor to use natural motion as oppossed to ballroom styles which like Ballet which usually attempt to force the dancer to meet its sense of aesthetic.
  7. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep New Member

    turbulant air currents

    My partner had eight months training at that point. And if you see me bouncing, the air I was dancing on that day was slightly turbulant!
    Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.
  8. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep New Member

    learning from videos

    I answered your questions twice, but someone keeps deleting my answers.
    But let me be brief and try a third time.
    There are three situations that mislead video viewers into thinking that they are watching authentic Swing/Lindy dancers or whatever:
    1) Auditions are held very often by unqualified Swing Dancers. So what you see is not necessarily the best dancers. Friendships also enter into the Dance Director's choices during the audition stages or not enough good dancers are available since other film auditions or jobs may be in production and they take up the excess dancers. During WWII most of the good male dancers were in the service, So there were a few Draft Dodgers that had no competition during the auditions that got the jobs.
    2) Dance contestants will do anything to attract attention or do anything spectacular to win, disregarding authentic dancing.
    3) Many students imitated mediocre dancers the see on films, thinking they were copying professionals. Most dancers you see for five or ten seconds, would bore you to death if you had to watch them for more than those few seconds, because they are that limited.
    Note: There is no substitute good training by qualified professional teachers. There is just so much you can learn by watching videos. The critical 'Techniques' that make the difference are not something visible like a styling. And Styling on one person doesn't always look or feel good on another. I am a firm believer in 'teaching yourself' after learning some good basic concepts.
    Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.
  9. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep New Member

    Dean's 1950's Elite Group

    To all the above critics,
    All the above critiques are certainly valid. My explanation for my discrepancies with most of the above is the following and I have stated this fact in several previous commentaries:
    The great majority of Swing dancers in the 1940's up through the 1960's were Chain studio Swing dancers easily identified by the lady traveling on the Rock steps!
    In 1954, I met Dean Collins who within a year began teaching at my studio where he eventually began showing me some new Techniques that he admitted he had himself begun to use recently, and that his dancing was very different and very much improved over the style of dancing he did in the 1940's. I was able to categorically verify Dean's style of dancing by visiting Irene Thomas. It was Jean Phelps Veloz of 'Swing Fever' and ' 'Groovy Movie' fame who introduced me to Irene.
    Irene often danced with Dean in the 1940's and in 1950 Irene left Dean and L. A. to become a professional Dance Team in New York. If I need a witness, Jean was present when this conversation went on. Irene told me she went Swing dancing in Manhattan twice after her arrival in 1950, and thast the Swing style was so different, Irene called it terrible if I recall correctly, and she never went Swing dancing in New York City again after those first two experieces..
    We three were in a Gymnasium at the time where Irene had been training a group of Senior Citizens dance routines for charity events. Irene in her 70's was still an excellent dancer. She played a Swing record and we had a dance session, I Irene following me, and I adjusted to her strict Chain Studio Style; she the led Jean, and eventually we discussed the style that Dean and she did in the 1940's and it definitely was WCS. And Jean herself was then and still is basically a WCS dancer. However Jean has no trouble following me when I dance the strictly Savoy Style techniques I learned from Dean because Jean is a 'dancer' who can follow anyone no matter the style; that scenario took place in Ojai, Ca in 2001.
    Now let me take you back to 1950's: Dean never would admit who taught him how to dance but tells a story that Mary Collins can verify, since she was present when Dean told me this story. 'Dean and Mary were out dancing in L.A. area. After the dance, a man approached Dean and said, 'You dance just like someone I used to admire dancing in the Savoy Ballroom, but his name was 'so and so'". Dean replied, 'That used to be my name, but I changed it." Dean told me this story in 1981.
    Now this will shock many Dean fans; but Dean's students in the 1954 onward, when I knew him never had enough students to make a living. He always had another job install;ing security devices or what have you. In the two years he taught at my studio he may have been teaching elsewhere also but his schedule was never more than 10 teaching hours a week.
    Dean's elite Group of Swing dancers that he taught or had a strong influence could never have been more than 50 dancers. BUT and a big BUT, his dancers almost always won the Swing contests and made the auditions for film work. Dean's Group may have been miniscule in tyhe 1950's compared to the overpowering Chain Studios that proliferated the L.A. area, but Dean's dancers was the Elite Swing dancers of the 1950's. And my Hollywood Dance Club was the only studio that taught these Savoy Lindy=by Techniques;l Thanks to Dean Collins.
    So all these statements Dean made in the 1982 interview have no bearing on what I say about my experiences in the Hollywood Swing Scene of the 1950's. We were a very small group, but we were by far the best dancers, thanks to a Master Teacher who happened to be more than my Savoy instructor but a friend and personal mentor.
    And Dance Master, with all due respect, Constantly misquoting me in derogatory manners is more harmful than name calling. Maybe apologizing for blatant misQuooytesd should be in your Guidelines. Just a friendly suggestion from,
    Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.
  10. d nice

    d nice New Member

    Joe... West Coast Swing is not identified as the follower coming forward on the "rock step". There is ample footage of dancers at the Harvest Moon Ball and social dancing at the Savoy that shows the follower doing everything from traveling forward to staying in place all on the "rock step". As a matter of fact there is ample footage of leaders not rock stepping on the "rock step".

    I know you don't think video tape footage is a reliable source... which I find extremely humorous considering you love to talk about your appearance in movies and your dancing in it. Luckily we still have many dancers who danced at the Savoy Ballroom to show us, tell us, and teach the dance they did there. I'm going to have to go with their version of what is and is not authentic Savoy Style Lindy Hop.

    The very use of the name "Savoy Style" is questionable when what you describe is at odds with the way they danced in the 30's and 40's and 50's at the Savoy Ballroom. Unless of course you are refering to the Savoy Cafe or one of the other establishments that used the Savoy name, several of which were out here in CA.

    Revisionist history is easily identifiable. I don't think that is your purpose. I do think that you have a very set experience with swing dancing, and are unable to come to grips with the fact that there is much about lindy hop you don't know. There is much everyone doesn't know, myself included. Swing dancing has been going on for ninety years. It is impossible for a single individual to know everything.
  11. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    Joe, are we talking about misquotes or differing interpretations of your original intent?

    A quote would involve putting something in quotation marks and crediting you with saying it. If this is the case, please specify your original quote and the misquote (appearing in quotes) and we'll take care of the problem immediately. If it's a matter of interpretation, why not restate your intent so we can better understand?
  12. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep New Member


    I have caught at least a half dozen misquotes by another poster. And these were blatant misquotes. I should have notified you directly, but I assumed, obviously wrongly, that you were reading all the commentaries. These misquotes are easy enough to pick up. Just go to my commentaries where I make those corrections and back track to the post just prior to mine.
    If the misquotes were harmless, it would not matter, but when the misquote gives the opposite impression of my original statement...then it does matter. An instance where he takes my sentence and leaves off the last words, ' he lived in New Jersey' is taking a statement out of context, and although this is not a 'Misquote' per se', it does diminish the sense of the full sentence. I used the word 'Never' only once in all my commentaries because I 'never' did hear Dean Collins mention the word Flying Lindy. And "I" never did see him dance the Flying Lindy and I doubt if anyone else ever did.
    Dean Collins had a lot of talents; He was a hell of a tap dancer, which no ever mentions, and He told me he knew all the Ballroom dances,. which I never doubted his word, and his Shim Sham was by far the smoothest, most tightly knitted choreographed rendition ever, that makes even Peter Loggins', one of our best Shim Sham dancers, look lack lustered in comparison. Dean had a lot of talented facets of Lindy Dancing, but he never mentioned or did the Flying Lindy in MY presence or on any Videos I've seen of him Dancing.
    I do have an audio tape of Dean talking which was made around 1970's, and in it he states that all these different names for Swing dancing are basically the same as the Lindy, but he never mentioned 'Flying Lindy'. I'll make a copy for you shortly. I am in the midst of moving, an horrendous job when one has books and photos and manuscripts and documents from news papers that go into the untold thousands. So it might be a while before you get a copy of that tape.
    Incidentally, I figured what the 'Texas Tommy Swing ' is: It's a standard Texas 'Square Dance'. The San Fracisco 1907 headline that reads, 'Texas Tommy Swing' was too long for the page so they just chopped of the ending, ' OUT' from the word 'SWINGOUT'
    The 'Texas Tommy Swingout' goes something like this at about 180 bpm:

    words & music anonymous
    "Take your partner by the arm,
    turn her around until she falls on the ground,
    Pick her up and do the dozy doe as you turn about,
    And that's how you do the Texas Tommy Swingout."

    If you go to the Texas University of the Performing Arts, they probably have some back issues of the music sheets.
    Just tell them Joe sent you. And you can 'Quote' me on that.

    Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.
  13. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    Black Sheep,
    There is a big difference between misquoting and misinterpreting. In the case of misinterpretation, we can usually adress that here in the Dance Forums. Simply explain your case again so your intent is clear to all. If someone is "quoting" you incorrectly, it needs to be removed. I've already dealt with one such situation that was somewhat of a judgement call.

    In the future, please use private messages to a moderator or the misquoter. This is what everyone else is using and you need to do it too.

    I'm actually breaking one of the Dance Forum guidelines as I write this. Issues concerning moderation need to be discussed using private messages, not on the public forums.

    Note the "PM" at the bottom of every post and the link to check messages near the top right part of the page. It's just like using email.

  14. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep New Member

    Flying Lindy Secret #2

    Lindy Lovers,
    I have offered to give the breakdown for the Flying Lindy a week ago, and only a dozen responded by sending me the Email with the word, 'Flying Lindy'.
    There was no catch when I promised to deliver the Magic Pill, which I did just prior to June 31 before Camp Hollywood annual event.
    Now I offer the secret breakdown to the authentic Savoy Flying Lindy and only a dozen respond. The cut off date is September 1 st. only a few days left for a dance style that is almost a lost art. And I" guarantee you, if you got the Lanza Six Count Lindy, teaching method, the Flying Lindy is a piece of cake.
    Send me the word, 'Fyling Lindy', and you will get the simple Magic Pill instructions that will put you ahead of the best Lindy dancers in town.
    Email the word 'Fyling Lindy' to <d.Lanza@netzero.net>
    Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.
  15. d nice

    d nice New Member


    Joe read the Texas Tommy Thread. I cite several resources that will answer your questions.
  16. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep New Member

    sources & resources

    First of all, the main issue if anyone recalls, was 'How the Lindy get it's name?' I cited Charles Linburgh as being the source. Now how and Why are you even bringing up this 'Texas Tommy Swing'?
    If you want to know what most Swing historian give as the source of Lindy, it started in New Orleans as a Funeral Procession March by the Creoles who were hired for those occasions, and the march became the dance that eventually came to the Savoy Ballroom in Harlem.
    If you really want a research project, find out the Original name of the dance before it became known as the Lindy Hop.
    And why, if you are so interested in Swing, why haven't you sent me the word, 'Flying Lindy' for my Breakdown of the Flying Lindy?
    Black Sheep, the Flying Lindy Link.
  17. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    Black Sheep,

    I don't know whether you realize what a wonderful resource you are. I, for one, have learned so much from the articles you have posted. I wasn't around to witness the origins of swing, but my parents introduced me to the good stuff -- Benny Goodman, Louis Jordan, and lots more. That's why I value you. You can tell me how things were before swing was even on my radar scope. Please share your knowledge. :D

    Thanks for all your postings.

  18. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep New Member

    Nastalgis, Hollywood 1950's

    How refreshing to receive an affirmation of what I am committed to do: redress the inaccuracies about who did what, where, when and how.When I returned to the Dance scene after a forty year absence, I felt like a time capsule of the Hollywood 1950's being reopened for people like you, so that Golden Decade of the dance scene could be vicariously shared.
    It was a time when anyone could walk into the most exclusive night clubs for free of a cover charge of a two drink minimum and bump into Errol Flynn on his way out, or have Judy Garland sitting at the next cocktail table laughing at some story Tony Martin just finished, and have Nancy Sinatra in your audience on a Saturday Matinee at Ciro's on the Sunset Strip while I was teaching my original Bossa Nova Dance on stage.
    And there always was a dance Venue going on at least one a night featuring everything from Swing Contest, to Show Casing Talent to dancing to Tito Puente, Eddy Cano, (My Mambo Favorite) and big bands like Rene' Touset and Latin combos like Jack Costanza, the only band leader who played the bongos. Hollywood was truely glamorous and the stars were very friendly and down to earth.
    Every day was an adventure in an Alice Wonderland, with euphoria flowing wherever you went.
    For me personal;my it was a mixture of heart aches and ecstasy, disappointments and successful accomplishments.
    But at the time, one forgets to smell the flowers, and so my advice to youth beginning a new adventure is, "The getting there is often more fun then arriving at your goal, so enjoy those precious moments along the way. And if you see a pretty flower, don't pass it up without saying, 'Hello!
    Black Sheep, your friendly
  19. d nice

    d nice New Member

    Re: sources & resources

    Funny, when I look back at the posts Texas Tommy seems to be addressing a completely different issue. Nice try at obfuscation but the posts are still there for all to check.

    Really? Who? Name them and provide a means to contact them. I've yet to read a book, see a documentry, or talk to a single person who says this. The strut (the name for the dance the second line drum majors do) has no direct connection to lindy hop at all. If you think it does please give us some references that we can check.

    Already done Joe. If you read the posts I had written on this forum (and Yehoodi prior to your departure) you would know that this has alrweady been discussed.

    Because I know the Flying Lindy. You have yet to provide any information that makes me think that what you have to say is relevant to the style that is generally known as Flying Lindy.

    If you want me to add to your growing list of contacts I am going to have to say no. I'ver already seen how you then use the numbers of people that inquire after information to try and add some credibility to your arguments. If you were truly interested in sharing your knowledge to the betterment of this forum and the swing community you would simply post it like I have always done. Why not stop with the self-promotion and just share with class?
  20. d nice

    d nice New Member

    Re: Nastalgis, Hollywood 1950's

    LOL. Joe you deny things Savoy dancers confirm in relation to their own style. Redressing inaccuracies does not mean promulgating new ones.

    Point of order... the early 40's was the Golden Age of Swing Dancing. There were more dancers, more Swing Bands and more media attention than at any other point in history.

    If we want to discuss your Bossa Nova why don't we move to the Ballroom or general dancing forum. That way we can stay on topic when I ask about some of the stuff I've researched concerning it. I'm actually interested in a number of things about it.

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