Swing Discussion Boards > what makes a leader/follower good

Discussion in 'Swing Discussion Boards' started by luh, Aug 29, 2006.

  1. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    It actually reads as though you agree with most of them, if not all.

    And neither in BR. I am actually quite knowledgable of swing and wc, and see no difference between your post above and BR or AT.

    Again, this is identical to AT, and 'good' BR (not the step-by-rote-crap). We agree on all points, thus far. But, the descriptions do not imply a secondary skill. The fact that it is a primary skill is a base for my inital point, exactly.

    I don't follow your logic, here. Why do you assume that there is a distinctive separation? I have danced this seamlessly for decades; classes, comps, TC, etc. with no problems...or demerits.

    Why should there be a difference?
  2. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    I believe this to be the same in all/most dance. Perhaps, it is semantics that is the issue here. When I said I do not make the follow do something, it was not to infer that I do not cause the action. To make her, in my earlier post, inferred to physically, or manipulatingly, force her somewhere. The post of cause and affect to effect is what happens in all dance.

    I agree.

    Forgive my confusion, please. Isn't this exactly what I have been saying that sparked the controversy that we are all agreeing on in the end?
  3. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    Exactly what I said, above.... [​IMG]

    ...Yes, it is.
  4. Dancelf

    Dancelf Member

    I may be in error, but I don't think so.... we started from

    You pulled out one verb, and replaced it with another. As I regard the verb that you removed as an important one, and one that is commonly inadequately understood/communicated, it doesn't seem at all to me that you've been saying the same thing.

    You can choose your own rules, but I wouldn't consider "d nice can work out what I really meant" an adequate standard against which to measure a description of dance.

    Why I reject "follow and follow": in the communities I've danced in, a number of women take up leading. Once past the initial "oh my god, I had no idea it would be so hard", progress is generally fairly steady until they plateau. They've gathered enough confidence in the role that they don't feel inadequate, they've got some pattern vocabulary to play with, they've figured out that they are still *dancing*, and that the musicality/improv/styling can carry over (which tends to keep them out of the "pattern happy" trap).

    But there's a piece missing. And when you give them a chance to experience that piece for themselves, the eyes get REALLY BIG as they discover a door that they hadn't noticed yet.

    Follow and follow is a perfect description of the plateau. And the piece that's missing? yeah, it's leading.

    Because the distinctive separation is implied by the phrasing that you used? Verb A, then Verb B? That verb B is clearly subsequent to verb A, and has an interval associated with it (to the end....). I also infer from impart that you are talking about a discrete, rather than continuous action, and this is supported by the break in the sentence structure, and the lack of an adverb to communicate the notion of simultaneity.

    Had you written instead "I commence a lead... then also follow...." I would not have understood you to be suggesting a separation. Of course, my rephrasing may not match what you really meant, and I likely could have come up with another reason to object.

    Best I can do. Hope that helps.
  5. Dancelf

    Dancelf Member

    99.44% agreement. I don't like connotations of the verb "adjust" though; a broader verb would be more appropriate.
  6. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    How about "just keep dancing"? Too broad, maybe?
  7. d nice

    d nice New Member

    But it is adjusting that I'm doing. I lead a whip, my partner over-rotates (be it by accident or to better enable a syncopation or body styling without breaking the move itself). I can either ignore her over rotation and lead my next move as if she had followed the move in a plain and unmodified manner (that is to say followed the move rather than dancing the move) or I can adjust my lead to the angle, distance, and tension level that has now developed.

    I could also use the word adapt, which in context really means the same thing, or accommodate or alter... but both of those are much to passive or permissive to be adequate word choices for dances like Lindy Hop, for my taste... not that they aren't all synonyms for each other, but the connotations they have are different.
  8. d nice

    d nice New Member

    I am causing the step... I create the action in her body, she then reacts, either by accepting the lead and moving willingly as I have already begun mking her body do so, or resisting me.

    I am creating the step, she is going with it. That is lead/follow on the most basic level. Everything else is built on this basic understanding. The idea of follow and follow is an abstraction. A fun way of making leaders think about watching their follower and responding to her movement... but it is an abstraction that if taken literally results in both people standing around waiting for a move/movement to happen.

    As fundamentally wrong as co-leading.
  9. Me

    Me New Member

    Sounds an awful lot like following to me. :rolleyes:

    I offered Kool-aid and cookies to those who would come to the dark side of AT, but this thread has caught my attention again so I have returned to up the ante - Brownies!
  10. chandra

    chandra New Member

    thats what the "small dance" is for

    *cough* contact improv *cough cough*
  11. Vince A

    Vince A Active Member

    Damn . . . FINALLY . . . somebody said it!

    Thank you!!!
  12. Sagitta

    Sagitta Well-Known Member

    You have me...sure...I'll have a couple brownie...
  13. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    The concepts that I have been trying to say here, obviously not well, are what I have been teaching for years, and, though, arguably in different words, have been upheld by many, if not most, of those whom many of us consider maestros/maestras. As recently as tonight (which is what brought this thread to mind, again), a well known maestra from BsAs commented on how well my concept of lead/follow is working with the students whom she had encountered on her visit to the states. I wish that within the 5 languages that I speak, I could have said it better here, thus be better understood. Yet, for the moment,

    I give up.
  14. d nice

    d nice New Member

    The problem appears to be one of terminology. What you say might make perfect sense within the concept of AT and when you are present to demonstrate what you mean.

    The problem is outside of your own dance circle your jargon is more than a little confusing. As a matter of fact in the world of Swing it is a ludicrous impossibility, seeing as how the roles of lead/follow are well established and everything you have said is the result of "Following the follower" is what we refer to as leading well, without the weird language.

    I'm not saying you are wrong in what you teach, I'm saying that the words you use and the descriptions you give mean different things in the context of swing... it is you who must decide if you want give up your terminology to better communicate with Swing Dancers or if you are going to try and make the hundreds of thousands of us abondon our terminology to communicate with you.
  15. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    As a linguist, I appreciate your comments, but understand the language very well. It is not flawed, though perhaps, or obviously, not well communicated.

    As for being a ludicrous impossibility, I disagree. There are many Swing moves that follow the questioned technique exactly (I won't bother to name them because names tend to change across syllabi). I could site a common one; for ex., a simple natural (right) or reverse UAT for the lady.

    As for the need to abandon your terminology, ...unnecessary for communication. :cheers:
  16. d nice

    d nice New Member

    LOL. I think you are more concerned with apearing top be right than understanding what others are saying to you. If you want, I can try to clarify again, but, I'd suggest that reading what we have wrote will be enough.

    The terms you use mean entirely different things outside of your circle. When I say they are impossible in swing I mean that the way we define/use those words describe something entirely different than what you mean, something not possible in swing.

    You don't want to modify your language so your audience knows what you are talking about that is your prerogative. Completely illogical, but your prerogative.
  17. d nice

    d nice New Member


    Okay, got it. Thanks. I could have kept at trying to discuss Swing dance theory and aesthetic with you for pages and threads... but that post just saved me a ton of time.
  18. Flat Shoes

    Flat Shoes New Member

    If a follower is about to crash into me, and I jump out of the way, I am responding to her movement. But I am not following her, I am just adjusting to what she is doing.

    There is in my opinion many ways of responding to what a dance partner is doing. Not all of them are the same as following. As a lead, most of them is not following, but adjusting to what the follower is doing.

    Both lead and follower responds to what the partner does. But there is a clear difference between the roles of the leader and follower. And there is a clear difference between how the lead responds to the follower, and how the follower respons to the lead.
  19. kayak

    kayak Active Member

    If she is cute, I don't jump out of the way :D

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