Tango Argentino > What makes a waltz a waltz for you?

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Subliminal, Jan 5, 2011.

  1. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Vals criollo

    Here a nice example of Vals Criollo. I like the footwork of the winning couple Karina y Oscar best (from 3:12 on )

  2. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Many people believe that about milonga, too. "There are no pauses in milonga."

    I here some to "many" pauses, albeit short ones, in both vals and milonga.
    Here we look at val.

    The first sheet music I happened to look at was Corazón de oro


    I see pauses.
  3. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    It's too bad it's so scratchy. I suspect that's why I've never heard that version played at a milonga. It's also a bit slower than the typical vals (at least for the ones I usually hear). If someone were to spend a few years cleaning it up, It likely would be a very nice version.

    I heard a pause (hold) between the intro and the start of the melody, then another one (I think) between verses. I like songs with some tempo changes (like this one had), but some leaders (I suspect people without music backgrounds) find tempo changes difficult to dance to.
  4. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I think that style of milonga is called milonga liso (no pauses and no traspies).

    The only thing that I haven't been able to acquire a taste for (in milonga), is how some people (mostly performers), try to make milonga as elegant as VU style tango. For whatever reason, that style of dance just doesn't fit the emotion of most milongas (the music) for me.
  5. sambanada

    sambanada Active Member

    the flow of 2 beautiful people, to beautiful music. Aaah!!
  6. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    As you've made that comment (correctly as far as I'm concerned) and this
    is a Vals thread, I cannot resist posting this performance in which Gavito
    does the strangest thing to a Vals.

  7. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Sorry, I was hoping people would look at the music as transcribed in the score on that page. What we hear, however... And what is actually played...
  8. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    My point is that sentences like "vals is flowing" or "there are no pauses in vals" are over-simplifications which perhaps can be good to explain vals to a beginner, but an advanced dancer should considers that things are a bit more complex, and that there are nuances in valses as well.
    The question should not be if vals is flowing, but "how much and where is this music flowing?" may it be a tango or a vals.
    I have given some example, and all the orchestras that I cited play for dancing.

    With "pauses" in the music I also mean long sustained notes when NO other instrument is giving a rhytmic base: in this case, according to me, you should not step (any other movement which is slow and doesn't imply stepping is ok). Instead, if there is rhythm and melody, you can choice to follow one or the other, or both of them in the same time.

    Clarified that, I can admit that, in general, vals music has less pauses than tango. And as a consequence this is reflected to the dance.
    But this is very different than saying that the absence of pauses make a vals a vals.
  9. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    That's for all of those who don't belive if they don't see :cheers:.
    Anyway many valses have that kind of pauses at the end of the musical phrases, and they are clearly noticable also when listening.
  10. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Maybe I missed a post somewhere, but what I recall is that the OP asked what people LIKE in vals when they dance and there were answers like "Flow" and "no pauses".
  11. chanchan

    chanchan Member

  12. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    Sorry, but I read his post again and there is nowhere that question, he asked:

    - What makes a waltz a waltz for you?
    - [...] But what else makes a good waltz? Circular movements? Smoothness in the step?

    - What do you do to make your waltz stand out from your regular tango, style and step-wise?

    He seems to ask for opinions, not tastes.

    I asked you about Pugliese's vals, because I wanted to understand if you usually don't like pauses in vals, or if you believe that pauses are wrong in any vals, as a principle, included valses where the flow someway stops in certain moments.

    The first one is a taste, the second one is an belief, an opinion.
    In the first case there is nothing to say, in the second case it can arise an interesting discussion.
  13. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Well, zoops is right about the intent. Everyone has their own opinion on how it should be danced, the idea was to find out personal preferences in style/emotion/technique and discuss.

    As far as I'm concerned, there isn't a wrong answer to the question. Unless your answer is something like, "Vals makes me want to Lindy Hop." :p
  14. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Originally Posted by Zoopsia59 [​IMG]
    Maybe I missed a post somewhere, but what I recall is that the OP asked what people LIKE in vals when they dance

    He also specifically asked followers what they like.

    From Sub's original post: "Particularly followers, what they like to feel"

    I answered as a follower and gave my preferences on what I like to feel.

    I don't understand your attempts to make more out of it than that.
  15. Ray Sison

    Ray Sison New Member

    +1 :cheers: to sambanada
  16. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    I just wanted to understand if it is a taste (like "I like fish, I like red wine") or an opinion (like "According to me, fish should go with red wine"). None of them can be wrong, but the second one is open to discussion.
  17. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, we dance to what we hear, not what is printed on the score.
  18. ant

    ant Member

    I am not sure if it is just a particular venue that I attend or it is played generally but I tend to dance to the track you mentioned alot.

    I understand why you feel there are pauses in the track but to me Pugliese seems to be playing with us. The pauses and slowing down of the music seems to have a quality of suspended waiting (rather than a definite pause) allowing the maximum amount of contrast within the track between the way you would normally dance Vals, flowing swirls and the almost stillness of suspended movement the pauses dictate. To me there is an expectation of movement within the pause that is not there in normal pauses in most other music.
  19. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Maybe if you'd talk more about your opinions on tango (along with considering other people's opinions), rather than focusing so much on philosophy and logic, it might be a more productive conversation.
  20. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Well I can certainly say I didn't care for it. To be fair, the video quality was very annoying, so it may have influenced my dislike some, but to me, it seemed as if it was danced more like a tango than a vals.

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