Tango Argentino > What makes a waltz a waltz for you?

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Subliminal, Jan 5, 2011.

  1. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    Ok, now please watch the video posted by johnem:
    The music is a "regular" vals with no tempo change at all, and not very slow.
    Pay attention to what happens to the music in 2:00-2:04 and in in 2:16.
    I don't want to know if you define them pauses or what kind of pauses, but: how would you dance those parts? Would you mantain the flow, for example with giros, or do something like what did Gavito, or something else?

    My personal opinion is that in those parts that I mentioned, there is no other option than following the melody (like Gavito, possibly with different movements).
    The rest of the song could be danced following the melody or following the rhythm (which means maintaining the flow, no pauses, etc.)

    (Disclaimer: I am asking for opinions, this is not an exam and there is no "right" answer)
  2. Ampster

    Ampster Active Member

    If it were me, I would simply stop and dance the silences and pauses and make it a part of the dance.
  3. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    My honest opinion is that the band goofed up at that section. To me, it made no musical sense how they played that passage. The song had a nice "flow" going, and then lost everything for a bit. It wasn't like it was a pause, but more like a mess. I can't fault Gavito for just stopping like he did, as the band was just bad there. I think it just took him a bit to get it back together, after the band got back on track.
  4. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

  5. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    I've read your article and subscribe it all, including your considerations about hesitations.
  6. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    I have a different opinion, but I apreciate that you don't give the fault to Gavito. ;)

    The band is Anibal Troilo's orchestra, one of the most important bands of the Golden Ages, and played specifically for dancing. My impression is that this pause fits perfectly with the dynamics of the song, which has an alternation of strong, passional moments and soft parts with a contrast that grows up until this final section.
  7. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    The dancing looks to me like pure Viennese Waltz.
  8. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Think the decisive circles and upper classes where always orientated towards europe. So a mixture between argentine and viennese style came forth. It´s not VW, it´s rather kind of that swaying what here about is called rural or country waltz.

    By the way, besides Gardel, del Carril is one of the great tango stylites (though political bit precarious), so it made me wonder how unsophisticated he danced.

    (off topic, my Carril favorite youtube.com/watch?v=QPQsSmk_d1A )
  9. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    You watch over and over because you enjoy the fact that the dancing is unspectacular? (ie: boring, bad, mediorcre, etc)

    I don't understand what you are trying to say.
    Perhaps a language issue?
  10. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    never mind..
  11. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    ok, the dancing is horrible, but somehow I love that vid. Perhaps it is the sum of the music, singing and the feeling?
  12. Ray Sison

    Ray Sison New Member

    Oh, that is very understandable! Such is true with a lot of things in life...
  13. salthepal

    salthepal New Member

    I'm seeing everyone focusing so much on the beat, not enough on the melody/music. I used to be like that, but once I learned to listen to the melody and actually dance with the phrasing of the music, I got so much better. That when I felt my tango was feeling like tango, my vals was feeling like vals, and milonga feeling like milonga. Oh and when nuevo music comes on, I sit down, because that's what lounge music is for ;)
  14. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Welcome to Dance Forums salthepal.

    The beat is interconnected with the melody. Phrasing is based off of the measure. There are different ways to listen to music. If you are listening to the music, you will hear the 1,2,1s, the 1,3,1s, etc. As long as you're dancing them, it doesn't matter whether you think of them as musical patterns or if you just feel your way through them.

    Also, it's clear from your couple posts that you have an axe to grind about nuevo music. That's all well and good, you're entitled to your opinion, but I'll warn you the subject has been beaten completely to death on this forum.
  15. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, welcome salthepal.

    And then there is Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People", which discusses a subject that is pertinent to even web based Dance Forums.
  16. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    For starters, everybody in this video seems to move to music, in perfect connection to their partners, and with respect to the movement happening around them.
    If we could achieve just that in our local dance places, it would have made me very happy...
  17. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    That's all very nice, but the question was what makes it a waltz, and for many of us, it's the beat/music.
  18. salthepal

    salthepal New Member

    What I meant to say is that placing too narrow of a focus on the beat may cloud the dancing to the melody. The melody of a Waltz song will contain the 1-2-3 beat, 1-2-1 or 1-3-1 syncopations or even 1-2-3-1 accents, but what makes valses feel like valses is the melody of the music that makes you want to soar off. Again, this is relevant to tango and milonga; if you just think of the beat, the dance will be hollow. And I've danced to alternative valses that just didn't have that vals feel that I crave, even though they clearly have the 123 rhythm.

    Sorry if the music topic has been beaten to death, but I'm new to the forum, and I thought I was entitled to present my opinion. Snarky references to self-help books (which I have read) are really not a nice way to have a discussion. Ironically, such references don't help make friends and influence people. Sorry if I infringed on the pecking order. I was seriously trying to contribute to the discussion, by specifically talking about the music.
  19. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    I'll let you know next time I run a Tango Nuevo workshop - clearly you'd be an ideal student for it. :D
  20. salthepal

    salthepal New Member

    Believe it or not, I was a Nuevo move monster at one point. I can actually lead volcadas, colgadas, piernazos, etc. I just haven't led any of those in over a year. At some point, my mind decided these open embrace moves done to some ambient music weren't as satisfying as moving in close embrace with a lovely lady to some good tango music.

    I don't begrudge people their nuevo dancing; I'm just curious why this seems to be solely a tango phenomenon. I just haven't heard of people going to Greek festivals and doing a 'Nuevo Syrtaki" to Dick Dales's Misirlou or something like that :p

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