Swing Discussion Boards > When to walk-walk and when to tripple?

Discussion in 'Swing Discussion Boards' started by Flat Shoes, Mar 18, 2005.

  1. Vince A

    Vince A Active Member

    Absolutely . . . but let me take you to where you need to be . . .

    The leader should not be stepping back ct1 UNTIL you have sat back on your honches . . . anchored in position . . . or whatever you want to call it.

    This is how we play!!!

    What if, at counts 3&4, 5&6 . . . you want to sit there and do swivels for 7&8, 9&10, 11&12, 13&14, and on 15&16 , you anchor!

    That's how it should be . . . just like if I lead you on a R-side pass, by the time I lift my arm up at ct2, signaling to you that I'm going to do something . . . you should already know (WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT IT) that probably, more than likely it's going to be a R-side pass with a lady's outside turn. So, between ct2 and whenever you anchor . . . you can do anything you want, as long as you get that turn in, OR . . .

    In all reality, you don't even have to complete that turn . . . you can do something else . . . you can put your R hand up, making a connection with your L hand and my L lead hand . . . stop the move . . . back up, hi-jack the move, etc.

    And guess what . . . I can do the same thing . . . and believe me . . . there are literally dozens of moves a leader can make out of a 1, 2 signal for a R side pass with a lady's outside turn. I use them all the time . . . this is playing.

    But believe me, I will do some "tests moves" on you before I start anything above your level - if you are a beginner to novice at WCS. Believe me, any leader worth his duck walks, would do the same!

    Have I confused you enough???
  2. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    Totally. :wink: :lol: :lol:
  3. Flat Shoes

    Flat Shoes New Member

    Since I'm a lead and dancing Lindy, I'm a bit confused. :lol:

    We don't talk much about anchoring in the Lindy world. The follow anchors and stay anchored for as long as she wabts to swivel?

    What if the lead wants to lead a new move? The follow just stays put, ignoring the lead and doing her stuff until she is content?
  4. Dancelf

    Dancelf Member

    Um, not if you are dancing with me, please. My preference is for lead follow at all times.

    So if we hit a part of the music where you are inspired to replace your anchor with 18 swivels... you ask! for the anchor to be extended, and release when you have finished. Asking is done via the connection, as is the release. It's unmistakable, but difficult for me to describe - if you've heard the expression "setting the pole": it's like that, but done from the follower's side with a downward pressure applied by the shoulder/lats. [I was first exposed to this in a workshop demonstration where I had been pulled as the dance dummy - I had no idea how the message had been communicated, but the meaning could not be missed.]

    Of course, the follower may not be granted the play time, or may not get as much as she would prefer, so planning your swivels to leave you right foot free on the odd counts is probably a good idea. Ideally, of course, you are centered at all times so that if el Leader de Rango decides to lead you out on the even beat, you can keep up; but the next time I see a good leader do that will be the first.

    Now, there is a different school of thought on WCS, which gives the follower a larger role in the decision making process. I'm guessing this is part of the foundation that Vince's explanation comes from. As I understand it, the leader chooses the basic skeleton of the next movement (underarm pass, perhaps), and the follower creates as she likes within that framework.

    It may be within that framework that the pattern isn't over until the dancers settle, in which case Vince's explanation makes more sense. I don't know - I haven't listened to any advocates of that style in many years, and things certainly can have changed since then.
  5. TemptressToo

    TemptressToo Member

    When doing Lindy, my brain usually says...

    Swivel, swivel, triple step, walk, walk, triple step.

    The end.
  6. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    Too bad I have no intention of learning lindy. :lol: :lol:

    From a musical perspective, a triple step takes the same amount of time as a walk-walk. That's why it's possible to interchange them, if you can get yourself on the correct foot. No idea how that relates to lindy. *shrug* :lol:
  7. Vince A

    Vince A Active Member

    A lot of the social dancing that I've been witnessing lately has gone this route, and it's just for fun and play WCS.

    I should have clarified that this would not happen in Pro-Am. And probably not in any Jack and Jills - as you want to stay as clean as possible in J&Js - except of course, you draw a follow that you've danced with a lot or a follow that does communicate (per how you said) back to me of her intent to do something . . . making added counts . . . etc.
  8. Vince A

    Vince A Active Member

    Some of us do try . . . but I have a question, since I follow . . . although not great at it!

    I'm honestly looking for an answer . . .

    Even if the lead did bring a follow out on the wrong beat . . . the follow is on the wrong foot . . . wouldn't the follow just walk it out???
  9. Dancelf

    Dancelf Member

    I guess my return question is "walk it out when?" See my previous disclaimer, but I'm guessing that if the lead pops you on a 2 the leader is thinking rock-and-go "now" as the prep for something explosive "real soon" (Holmes isn't bringing you out on an even beat because he's eager to do a sidepass). I don't think you've got time to walk it out, which means your natural inside left turn just became an outside turn.

    To put a different perspective on it - beats end on the number, and units end on the two ( &a1 &a2 ), yes? So if you have to walk out a weight change after a lead on the 1, you've got a beat of music to work it out before the next unit starts. But if he's leading you on the two, there's no time after the lead to adjust - you are already in the meat of the pattern. So your choices are being late, being wrong footed for the next bit , or being clairvoyant enough to get the extra step in before the 2.

    I wouldn't worry about it, because this is all extremely hypothetical. A leader good enough to be doing this on purpose really ought to be good enough to have a backup plan if you follow with the wrong foot.
  10. Vince A

    Vince A Active Member

    Wow . . . I heard this years ago, or something similar, but NEVER understood it. Now I do! You paint a great picture!

    Hypothetical yes, but should it not be taught? This answers lots of questions for me . . .and definitely explains those looks :eek: I get from time-to-time.

    Why don't you teach a class on it??? I'll go!!!
  11. huey

    huey New Member

    In Lindy Hop, the choice is usually between triple-step (eg: left-right-left) and kick-down (eg: kick-left, down-left). These choices are the same for a leader and a follower. As a leader, the decision as to which I do is mainly down to the music. When it's slow, triple-steps, when it's fast, kicks.
  12. SwingBean

    SwingBean New Member

    When I asked that question of a WCS teacher (how do I know if it's a 6 count versus an 8 count pattern, so when to triple, when to walk-walk?) I was told that an 8 count pattern will have a new lead on 4 or 5. When you feel that lead you know the next thing is a walk walk. No new lead--pattern is over and you triple. It seems to hold up fairly well in practice.

    (But maybe this thread is beyond this point now) :wink:
  13. Dancelf

    Dancelf Member

    Mario Robau Jr. uses a similar mnemonic - if you don't change places (push break), or change places only once (side pass) six count. If you change places twice (basket whip), eight count.

    The bad news is that both of those rules have exceptions (how many depends on how much you want to quibble about what a new lead is, or what 4 is, or what is is).

    The good news is that the challenging exceptions are so rarely danced that you don't have to worry about them.
  14. Firephreek

    Firephreek New Member

    Often times, I will chalk Triples and Singles up to momentum. As a lead, there isn't any real way that I can lead one or the other, so I have to drop hints and give encouragement. i.e. on a lindy circle, I don't break her at the waist to try and force her do singles on 5,6, (creates that big shoulder dip looking thing) because it breaks our frame and kills the energy. Instead, I keep her moving in the one direction and that encourages her to take single steps. If she tries to Triple, it will just feel out of place. If I want her to do triples (close to ECS), then my body will clue her in and I will change the direction of her momentum. Plus the 'hitch'/'bounce' in my body will also clue her in. There's a go-stop-go movement in my chest when I triple (unless I take a non-standard triple) but when I take single steps, my chest is go-go. So I could keep doing singles in a circle until I'm ready.

    WCS doesn't have that hitch that LHS does, but it still has the momentum. I will roll out my triples when I have the time to, but if I'm being told to be somewhere, then I'll use the singles. Sure I can use the triples to get there as qucik, but will it make it awkward.

    I think in most situations where the awkwardness doesn't occur, it's safe to use either or, as long as you're where you need to be in the end. and that's a whole 'nother discussion I think.

    There is also a concept that I try to communicate from time to time that I find WCS and Argentine Tango Dancers are really familiar with, but that I don't see done much in LH. It's Lead Follow Follow, and I think it kinda fits in line with what's being discussed here.

    In AT (and WCS) the lead isn't an absolute command, it's a suggestion, a request. A lady will (ideally :D ) choose to follow, but depending on the gentleman's lead or her interpretation, ability, time of day, etc...might do something a little different. She may not step as far as he wanted or maybe not as quickly, etc...At that point, a lead can't just continue with what he intended to do. Now, he has to follow her. Maybe he has to shorten his step or change his direction, rhythm, conversation, whatever. He leads, she follows, and then he follows.

    This can happen in our other dances as well. I might want a huge whatever on beat 2, but if she's on the wrong foot, or somewhere else, I have to wait. I can't force it. I mean, sure, I could, but that would be rude and potentially unpleasent.

    ?? to everyone who's read this far: If we consider that a foot only takes a step when it's time comes, and swing is syncopated, could we say that a follower has a moment of time on her first step (1, or 3 or 5 or 7) to decide whether it's a single or a triple? Since we have 1--&2? In WCS, do we still have this syncopation? I don't see/feel it as much, and it tends to feel more even: 1-&-2.

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