Tango Argentino > Where's the BEEF?? or is it LEAD??

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Mario7, Feb 9, 2010.

  1. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    Thank you.
    Thank you again. And they can be done as forward ochos with lead facing LOD or back ochos with lead's back to the LOD.
    Think underarm turn as an example. Certainly can progress.
    The follow "jumps" into a seated position on the lead. Personally, I do lump those into stage tango, never lead them 'cause I think they look silly, but you certainly can be progressing through the sentada.
    No argument. But I still think that the primary differences are in technique, not moves/steps. For example, I think of the "inertia" based back boleo I described before as "nuevo", but the conventional, momentum based, back boleo as not "nuevo". Difference to me is significant differences in follower's technique (as well as leaders).
  2. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Unless you're weight-sharing, why does it matter? I think just about every advanced salon dancer I've seen slides at least a little in CE to pull off certain moves. You can do any move really in CE as long as you're open to the idea that you don't need to be completely squared with your partner all the time. I'd assume the same is true for nuevo.
  3. Lui

    Lui Active Member

    I’m not an expert on Nuevo, merely an observer, as I dance very little Nuevo myself. Therefore, this are just some of my impressions I got from watching Nuevo dancers.

    It’s so very difficult to define a specific tango style by it’s apearence, because their is no normed syllabus - which is a good thing in my opinion. It’s easier to draw a line if you look at the that very parameter involved into it’s creation. Look at the volcada for example. As a former stage figure it has been around quite some time. Give the lady’s left leg som rotation energy, maybe by a sacada, tilt her as soon as it is behind her body, so that it locks into a back cross, strike a dramatic pose or draw her along stage if necessary - voila! The crowd is watching. Lay audience love that pose. Danced on the street it stops the spectators even beeing far from an difficult or extravagant step. Executed with the right dynamics its full of energy, tension and drama. The people are curios what will happen next. You have just danced a stage volcada.

    It’s possible to dance the same step even in close embrace, but you don’t want to stop the flow on the dance floor, you don’t want to spend more as two beats on it and you don’t step back more than half a foots length. Thus, there is no pose, no dragging and just as little energy as necessary to smoothly move ladies the leg. Tilt, put her back and go.You have just danced a Salon volcada.

    Finally somebody played with the figure and wondered what will happen when you don’t lock the ladies leg, but let it swing with the motion. So the Nuevo volcada was born. I thing the playing with pendulum motions (volcada, colgada, boleos ...) is one important aspect of Nuevo. From this resulted that Nuevo is often danced more static, and a little bit slower. Traditional tango often employs a frequent change of speed and body tension and relaxation, creating some tention in the atmosphere of dance as well – for example by pronouncing rather the arriving/standing on the foot/beat than the movement). Nuevo, on the other side, has sometimes even dream like movements, slow, uniform and rather relaxed. I assume that the play with the physics/ the pendulum motion are more enjoyable that way. Of course you don’t need to dance the Nuevo combinations that way. I for example sometimes dance a Nuevo volcada, but use the traditional timing and styling. From the outside it doesn’t look very Nuevo at all and I wouldn't call it Nuevo.

    Nuevo is a dance of the Youth, or those who want to be counted as such. Ok, a boleo recto or linear bolero don’t need to be high but it’s often danced high. Many dancer give those move some acrobatic qualities, that can’t be easily don’t by a senior couple. Sometimes, that can’t be easily done by a younger couple as well, and that’s why Nuevo occasionally looks very awkward. When I see young German couples dance the Nuevo style I frequently wonder what their knees and backs will feel in 20 years. Nevertheless for many people Nuevo is the fresh alternative to the the traditional tango image: men in suits, Ladies in high dagged evening gowns, ... well you know the cliche.

    Finally it is a harbor for those people who like the tango dance somehow, but do not like the traditional tango music.
  4. Mr Walker

    Mr Walker New Member

    Subliminal's observations are spot on..in salon style the embrace slides and this allows both dancers more possibilities..Also the fact that our chest are connected in this style is because we desire it. i wish to feel her and she wishes to feel me.. She is responsible for her own axis/balance...
  5. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    I dont agree with this but I shall be more specific; I learnt a lot of different tango things from different teachers. I can count at least 24 different teachers that I remember, but probably more, but nobody except Homer was selling his stuff as Nuevo and even he doesnt make the distinction. I've seen him dance at Milongas and with Christina. he can do the same kind of things with other dancers depending more on their skill and experience. I also think there's a lot of dancers out there who just dont get out and dance enough socially they end up in small backwaters with a small group and dont pick up the nuances of tango connection because they are isolated. I danced with someone about six months ago who had become worse because she mainly dances with her partner and his ability is limited.

    There is probably an element of truth in the selling thing, but I think its more driven by what people see. In jive circles they like the fancy moves like leans and lifts and lunges that I would never ever dance at a milonga; so you have to take account of what people are looking for as much as what is being offered.

    I like the way Homer and Christina dance because it flows into and out of close embrace.
    I have been described as nuevo but no way am I going to stay inside someone-elses box.
    Nuevo has beautiful flowing movements but can only be danced by people who have a strong connection, excellent balance and the ability to be relaxed in the hips and knee.
    It takes time but these are exactly the same qualities I would expect in a close embrace dancer so what's the difference?
  6. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

    First of all, I'm not trying to prove anything. I find the posts in this thread very edifying...I might learn something. However, I must ask what I must ask and I don't do this as a belligerent although I hate to see Tango communities morphing over into nuevo.
    Anyway, this line in the above post, stopped me cold.:confused: Perhaps, the title
    of this thread should be; "Where's the Connection?"...or are we using Nuevo Speak? What Connection? Maybe if I can 'get' this, I can get Nuevo.:( I mean, I've had open hold classes where the firmness of the frame was stressed..is this what you mean?..or perhaps the fact that some Nuevo dancers go to a (pseudo) upright close embrace for a moment now and then before the next flying wedgy ?? Where is the 'strong connection'...? please.
  7. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Well, I'd never think of the open embrace as "firm." To me it's one of the softest, most comfortable, most fluid embraces possible.

    Despite that, or because of that, it takes a lot of awareness to dance open/nuevo. Awareness of your own body and where you are being placed, awareness of your partner's body and how he's moving it in relation to other parts of his body and in relation to you, awareness of the music and how things are being fit to the music, awareness of your balance. All of that feeds into connection. I find the lead very very easy to feel in close embrace--it's right there, no missing it. In comparison to nuevo, it's about as subtle as a neon sign. But with nuevo, I find the options to be so unlimited, and the connection so subtle and varied, I have got to be completely and utterly tuned in to my partner. THAT gives me my connection.

    If I'm not tuned in to him I can't feel his weight changes as easily (particularly stationary), I'm likely to miss a change of alignment, I'm likely to not have the proper relaxation in my leg and balance over my standing foot. But when I do have that connection...and often it's very intense, very direct eye contact...it's amazing. It's a state of almost hyper-awareness. Of me, of him, of the music, of the room, everything. Very.deep.connection.
  8. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    here: as an example; Jenny & Ricardo's dancing doesnt get worse or better because the embrace fluctuates; the connection begins from the moment their steps begin and their attention is with the other person. You can be physically against someone and not connect and you can catch someone's eye across a crowded room and connect.

    Connection doesnt happen because you want it to; it happens because you may be open to let it happen. It might not happen in the first dance of your tanda, it might happen with one woman in a whole evenings dancing.

    Like any two people can f*** but to make love requires something that you cannot force to happen.
  9. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Peaches, I'm impressed - really! You are a rare partner indeed. That takes huge concentration and ability, and a very good clear and consistent lead. It is a connection of sorts but it's a more technical one though obviously all absorbing. But it is not the connection of the embrace.

    I too have learned nuevo-style moves and leads but as in most people's experience (I think) it did require frame and arm leads. In most neuvo on You-tube you can see all sorts of arm leads, paddling and the like. I can't recall seeing the connection you indicate. In the end I rejected Nuevo/Fantasia/Modern as not providing the wonderful connection and satisfying challenge that the embrace does. Less is more.
  10. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Well, no, it's not the intense physical connection that I find with close embrace or apilado. There's no sense of melting, or snuggling, into my partner. I lose the wonderful feeling (well, assuming our heights match) of tucking my forehead against his chin. Yes, that is all lost.

    And I won't say that arm leads have no place in nuevo. Of course they do. But they are not, IMO and IME, forceful arm leads. Yes, of course, if my partner is going to turn me out 90 degrees to him, or place me side-to-side with him, or such like that, it will require his arms. What I can't tell you is what it feels like...because I don't know that I've ever really felt anything directly.* I am where I need to be, don't ask me how I got there. He moves into my space or something, or has me aligned in a certain way and then re-aligns himself somehow. I really couldn't tell you. But, yes, it involves the arms. T'is another way of getting dissociation.

    I don't know what you mean by paddling.

    I don't know that you could see the connection I'm talking about. It's more of a feeling inside me, so I would imagine that for other people it's very much a feeling inside them, as well. By the same token, close embrace doesn't necessarily look like much either...it's how it feels between the partners. That's the real connection. You can stand all close and have your arms around someone and dance in close embrace...and still not feel a connection. It's not about the embrace. It's not about the distance. It's not about the physical contact. It's the CONNECTION. And that doesn't depend one iota on the style.

    ETA: I also have no idea what you mean about it being a more technical connection. Yes, I have to use technique. But that is true regardless of what style is being danced. If my technique isn't good it can be harder to cover flaws, and it can make the dancing exponentially harder, and it absolutely takes away from that real connection. The point isn't the technique; the point is that having good technique allows me to be more free, allows me to have that connection. And, part of that is feeling and being aware of my own body. That's far from technical...I find it actually rather sensual.

    *Major caveat: when done well. If I'm dancing with a guy who doesn't know what he's doing, I find everything is just uncomfortable. Close embrace, open, it doesn't matter. It ranges from discomfort to outright pain.
  11. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Oh Jenni & Ricardo! Of course they have a wonderful connection, emotional I guess, and professional. In open hold Jenni is almost always watching Ricardo's chest and maintining the relationship until Ricardo changes that relationship with arm leads. Then the eye contact is temporarily lost.

    Are they good? Most definitely! And very skillful. But they are partners, have practised and danced countless hours together and know what the other can and will do on a sub-conscious level. So their connection is not the same as an occasional partner on the dance floor.

    Theirs is not a realistic comparison.
    And of course, that's not what I aspire to either.
  12. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I've always thought of open embrace as an oxymoron. Forgive the hijack, but that's what popped into my mind.

  13. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Thanks Peaches, that's quite enlightening!
    Still think you're a rare partner!

    As for paddling - I suppose that's a quite dismissive description from a milonguero about left arm leads (of your right) especially then the lead hinges his arm at the shoulder. It's something I'm perhaps over-conscious not to do? But then I now lead from the chest and hardly ever an arm lead to be seen. Even in open hold I was taught not to use/paddle my arms - relying on body movement and the lady's eye contact to follow. That's exactly why I'm impressed!
  14. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    And just what would you consider as a realistic comparison? You won't take the example of a well-known couple. Would you take the example of people having experienced that with a random partner on a social floor? Because I have experience that. It is real. It is possible.
  15. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Not arguing.
  16. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    I almost fear now continuing this conversation.

    I'm not disputing Jenny and Ricardo's connection nor that of many other established couples on the semi-professional teaching circuit.

    Nor am I disputing the connection you feel born out of your intense concentration in the moment. Crikey, I respect it.

    But most of the people I come across in Nuevo, or whatever you want to call it, aren't like that. Too much floor/foot watching, concentration on the moves rather than their partner and the music. In Tango it's each and everyone of us to their own.

    Nor do most have any idea of their relationship to, and co-existence with, the rest of the people on the floor . . . . . . . . which brings us back to Mario's original post I guess.
  17. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    but skilfulness and experience help create the confidence. I've danced with Ines Mousavi and Mila and they were beautiful to dance with I cant say how they felt about the connection we had but wherever I went they went with me.....

    and lots of other dancers, especially Russian ladies.
  18. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    Everything she said!!

    I think one difficulty is that the skill level required to dance nuevo in a flowing and highly connected manner is very high.
  19. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    I would expect no less from those who haven't mastered the dance. Steps, even tricky ones, okay. But the dance? It doesn't sound like it.
  20. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Seems I misinterpreted your post, then.

    Oh, agreed. There's too much focus on moves...regardless of the style.

    Looking at the floor is something that is always brought up. I don't think, though, it's what it seems like at first glance.

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