Discussion in 'Salsa' started by road2graciousness, May 1, 2006.
yeah, me too. variety, baby.
Awww..Africana trying to push my buttons again, I love it :raisebro:. Objectionable statements perhaps but that's because you're projecting a certain attitude onto the text as that with which I wrote it. As a recent study concluded trying to read "emotion" and similar traits from a text message is prone to a 50% chance of error. So I think that maybe I was not clear enough and you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Not that you're a moron and can't follow what I'm saying, but it's very hard while writing to be concise and at the same time address all the "questions" and objections that may arise because someone misunderstood some affirmation or added extra meaning to it by themselves. I'm sure it happened to you too. Unfortunately my engineering background makes me work with many assumptions (such as readers will not read between lines or question my good faith).
I didn't say I hated non-sexualized dances. In fact I could dismiss your comment right away because I only gave you information about what I enjoy, not about what I dont enjoy, and certainly not about what I hate. But to humour you when I speak about attraction, and parteners wanting to seduce eachother, I mean it in a playful, flirty, yet respectful way. Not the I want to get you hot and take you home way. I want to see the dancers are enjoying more than just dancing, that they're enjoying dancing with eachother, that they are ejoying it so that they work together to make that dance beautiful (not that it should be their primary intention).
So no, I don't watch people who don't connect, just because I see them doesn't mean I'm watching. And it does not mean I hate seeing them dance...I'm just neutral.
As to the gay issue, by that logic so are the rest of the people watching them, so are the dancers themselves, and the women who are learning leading. I mean let's face it the entire salsa comunity is somewhat sexually confused. **Sarcasm** As to the mindset...what mindset would that be? Projecting again arent we? Besides when leads dance with male followers (cause i think "men with men" threw you off) everybody knows it's done for different reasons and most of the time is just practicing the lead. While the act in itself is unusual, it quickly gathers a crowd and what ensues is just for the show. But you know this, and you just want to bug me. By the way, I realize you were joking, and even if you weren't, it's still funny.
I'm glad you did. In fact I didn't say anything about dancing with him socially except for the fact he's rough. Which I heard from reliable sources. If you think otherwise, you are most likely welcome to .
engleazul you too highly estimate my concern for your opinions or desire to push *your* buttons
just know that much of your words are patronizing (your "engineering background"? please dont give us a bad name) and the way you present this gay/not-gay/masculine issue comes across as spiteful at least, hateful at worst, and in general, provincial
- Notice that I didn't address whether or not the dancer you're criticizing is rough, only the question of masculinity. but the seemingly spiteful purpose for posting what you did is NOT useful or helpful here. it may help you & others feel good about yourselves as a leader to know or presume whatever you want about a famous dancer (and don't we all sometimes?), but it's not a mark of good discretion to post negative speculation about it imo, not to mention that it reeks of insecurity
It's easy to write sensationalist sentences. What I would be more interested is why exactly do you think that, with quotes and what about them made you think that way. I would be glad to respond. Otherwise I really have no idea what you're talking about.
I didn't mean to be patronizing, that engineering background was just supposed to mean that I'm too analytical and bad at writing anything that's not technical to address all existing or possible arising concerns in one shot. Something one who studies literature will not have any problems with doing. But just to get my foot on the door with giving enginneers a bad name, STOP! That was nasty. And unless you graduated from MIT I don't see how you can default to being a better engineer than I am or anyone else for that matter. And if you have, I will apologize for my nastiness and crawl in a corner in shame.
But for now I will tell you this: my screen name is spelled "englezul". (this was patronizing) Sorry.
I panic too. But I've discovered I panic when there's an ISSUE in the way. Like, I'm too attracted to the guy, or i know there are elements of his lead that confuse me and I tend to screw up, or when I wonder what he's thinking about me, or whatever. There's usually SOMETHING in the way. Also, I keep getting stage fright in the car as I approach the club. Like I can't remember a damn thing. Like I'm some sort of imposter. But, in all those cases, as soon as I see a lead and friend I know and feel good about, or even just hear the music, all inhibitions fade and I can sink right into my dancing. I mean, dancing with Alex in Chicago was the easiest thing in the world! I think the biggest thing depends on your self-knowledge and the dynamic between you and your partner. I would probably also add the level of joy and love you're feeling too.. since those two things utterly annihilate panic.
I definitely know what it's like to feel tested, like I'm somehow dancing a salsa exam. I danced with a guy who claims to be a teacher a few weeks ago. I met him like my second night dancing ever in my life, and he had nothing but derisive comments about the dancers that whole night. Quite an ego. He hadn't asked me to dance since then, until two weeks ago. I said hi to him and mentioned that we hadn't ever danced together. I invited him to come and find me for a song before he left for the evening. And he did... he actually said, "let's see how your salsa is." I said "geez I'm nervous now.. feel like I'm being evaluated..." and he said with a half laugh, "always...". Well, the dance was sedate and too in control and definitely not fun., I misread about a hundred cues and basically had my brain spinning out of control the whole time. I'll be happy if I never dance with him again. In that case, I actually WAS being evaluated and wasn't just feeling like I was. No-one needs that unless they're competing or taking a private. Social dancing?? Gimme a break.
Personally, I think it's very important to make the partner feel relaxed and good, and bring the best out of them. That way; I have a much much better time myself, and my partner does too. Everyone's a winner baby!
I danced with a very well known, international salsa super-star only a few days ago. Boy, was I nervous as hell! I remember thinking how I'd give her my best dance, and impress her. OMG! how badly I failed. Anyway, the thing that impressed me the most about her, was her generousity, her kindness, and how encouraging she was to me (and to everyone else, beginners, intermediate, improvers, whatever). You'd think a top salsa super-star would be full of ego, but no, she was so gracious and a really lovely person.
If anyone makes you feel like crap, it doesn't matter how good a dancer they are, they're simply not worth the time of day.
And you're right about the something in the way thing. I get attracted to salsa ladies left, right and centre. Hubba hubba! Put's me right off my dancing!!
This is a big thing with me lately, assessing a partner's level, then dropping the choreography down to way within her comfort zone ... wait until the climax of the tune then BANG! one more spin than she thinks she can do, extra checks that she would have fluffed for sure at the start... It's really pleasing for both of us to see what she's capable of when she's properly relaxed and not anticipating!
Objections aside, I agree that a lot is added when there is a spark between the partners. For the record I'd probably enjoy watching this as much between two gay men as between a man and a woman. I guess it's partly cos dancing has such a bad press in heterosexual male britain that I really love to see men being men on the dancefloor... it's good to see there are role models for straight guys to get into dancing.
A UK couple, Lee and Shelley, performed a fantastic mambo routine at the BritSalsaFest in February, he was lifting her and she was splitting and throwing her legs all over the shop. But when they did synchronised shines, their movements were just as feminine as one another and it had all the sexual charge of a game of hopscotch.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think this sort of thing should be banned or any thing! But I don't think you can deny that there's a certain frisson to a dance that has that tension there...
You're welcome. Just in case you haven't done so already, there is another performance of Jayson on there, this time partener work with a woman. Run a search.
That's great to hear! How about a name? There is more than enough negative gossip that goes around the Salsa world, and I think it can only help when we start naming (and encouraging) the "good" characters in our midst. So, who was she?
really?? then check this out
yeah I get the warm-fuzzies readin that, no spite there at all
yes engrs need to stop using silly excuses, we're not all blathering social-incompetents. and I think you'd be surprised by your assumptions lol....but all that is beside the point, which you seem to have missed. And I wouldn't want you to crawl into a corner, because like most folks here, you have positive & helpful things to say, just not this time
@sweavo sure there's something electric about sexual chemistry in a dance, but there are other kinds of non-sexual connections that make different dances/dancers worthwhile in different ways.
africana, you of all people should know how sarcastic comments and opinions can make a nice person sound spiteful, rude, or otherwise just plain obnoxious. englezul has an opinion about the dance style, and just because someone doesn't like a given style implies nothing about the person's view toward the dancer himself--it seems like you're trying very hard to make someone a victim.
as for the dancing, i'd say i'm very impressed with the footwork. not crazy about the partner work in the other video... his shines and footwork are definitely his strong point. i admire the passion and the intensity... (but not the head whips :wink: )
Can you illustrate this? I was going to agree with you but can't think of an example. When it's a single-gender shines show you don't expect to see that but when it's just two people dancing in contact I think it adds a lot. I'd go so far as to say lack of that charge in a "couple" routine detracts from it. In Salsa it refers back to the Rumba which really is a "mating" dance.
Ah, I think I thought of an example - the Swing Guys from Milan. About as sexual as cotton candy but a really excellent show.
Finally something to the point. So let's take what I said :
I think it's rather obvious to see what I'm saying here especially if you've seen Jayson perform at various congresses/conventions. Inevitably there comes a time when he will start exaggerating his movement and will pump so much energy into his performance that he just takes away the attention from his partener. He downright outshines her. Quits the partener work mindset and goes into a "look at me" one, adds extra styling, makes excessive use of his headwhip etc. creating an imbalance between him and his partener. Especially because his style of dancing is feminine (i don't think anybody can deny that) so he basically stole all his partener's cards, because whatever she may do, he already did it and in an over the top way.
My belief is that partener work should be about uniformity, about having a great performance and standing out as a couple (or a group) performing, not as an individual, stealing away attention from your parteners.
There's nothing much to say here. I think it looks terrible, end of story. I talked to different people about this. Men didn't like it, and women don't really qualify it as "great looking" either. They describe it as "entertaining". If you like it, great. I don't. Like I said, that creeps me out in ways that 8 legged creatures will never be able to. This is an exaggeration meant to be humorous, meant to describe how much I dislike that head whip, and has nothing to do with J. Molina the human being.
Engrs? What's that. I don't think I missed the point at all. Again we're talking about something with absolutely no concrete reference. If I wanted to read this kind of literature and dig out the hidden meanings myself, I'd grab the Bible. I'm glad you find some of my post helpful, or at least interesting, but even when you are not able to categorize them in such way, don't make it your personal duty to pull on my ears and correct me based on your personal opinions about the topic at hand. Because it's nothing else than another subjective opinion. Instead take the information you find useful (if any) and discard the rest.
If I want to bring criticism to Molina, Martinez, G.W. Bush, or Paul Hewson, I am certainly entitled to. I might be right or not, but that's certainly not dictated by whoever's more famous and it's certainly not directed at their quality of human beings but at their actions (although it does get more complicated than this). I don't need you to tell me that Molina is a world class performer. That doesn't make him infallible. I don't need you to tell me how I feel about certain topics, or play the make belief forum psychologist pointing out what's wrong with everybody that dares to address a criticism to someone or what the "Real" reasons are for doing it.
I trust that if I am stepping over the line with something, the moderators will let me know.
Now cause I'm sure we all have something better to do than rant, although I have to say this morning was rather slow, so it gave me something to do, I will proceed to enjoying a great breakfast. It's a gorgeous day outside and I can't wait to get out.
I am not surprised or dissapointed to get this from you Josh, I always knew you would take a shot when you felt it was time lol which is why I can discredit your thoughts on this
Look no matter how you describe it, your not understanding how that first post came across as meant to degrade someone based on their expression of sexuality makes all the verbose explanations worthless
Yep. Also have you ever seen kids perform as partners or siblings who compete and perform as a couple? or dance socially? The points of connection usually include the audience and the interpretation of music. Of course those are extreme examples. I have lots of dances that aren't in any way sexual, just because i'm not attracted to the person, but I can connect through humor of the moment, the music, the play, etc, and various factors affect how much sensuality appears in the dance
Pull the donkey by its tail and it'll keep going forward. That's some chinese wisdom for you, curtesy of my friend here.
I'm new here, and maybe for that reason I shouldn't say anything, but then what the hell. I can't help but feel that my thread has been 'hi-jacked'. Is this bickering a regular thing on here?
I thought the salsa community was supposed to be friendly!? I guess that's not always the case. Would it be possible for the people who wish to argue, to continue to do so on another thread?
hahha hijacked? well it got heated but definitely not hijacked per your post below
this issue of feminine/masculine characteristics in dancing is what we're 'discussing'. And I happen to believe that dancers (and artists) should be free to express themselves in any sexual (or neuter) role they chose, to be their natural personalities. And people are free to watch or not watch...to pay or not pay, etc. People should be able to express dislike for a particular style without casting specific dancers as looking "creepy...like a creature" and other highly unrelated aspersions (like the bit about roughness) just because they don't fit a standard mold
oh wait am I arguing again??
LOL well you asked a good intial question that generated some disagreement that unfortnately got personal for many reasons that needn't be elaborated here...but don't worry about all that. And i hope you get helpful pointers for improving your dancing, that's the real bottomline anyway...
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