Salsa > Why is Musicality So Hard/Rare to Find in Salsa?

Discussion in 'Salsa' started by Big10, Jul 15, 2007.

  1. tj

    tj New Member

    Let alone being able to land someone on the moon! ;) :)

    So what was this thread about, again?
  2. Paou

    Paou New Member

    I did a workshop with edie and Al a long time ago, where they did two consecutive dances - one with a whole bunch of spins and wraps, and one with just Cross Bodys, single turn, and another move we call "under the arm" - but you know what, the second looked SO much more amazing than the first...

    I think it's just about keeping it all incredibly simple...

    Watch these two clips:

    IMHO: They are both very simmilar, and both show great musicality.. one is WCS, one Salsa.

    (Guess what, it's frankie martinez again)

    To me, the commonality is that when you count the number of spins and wraps, to the number of Cross bodys, basic step and reverse cross body... in the best bits it's like 4 to 1 or more in favour of basics.

    When you have that extra space, you can start to play with the music... but in salsa we have a HUGE communication problem between guys and girls... Most of the girls I know tell me that most guys are like washing machines when dancing... and they really feel they could be having *more* fun.

    But the guys want to keep the dance interesting for the lady (since they want to give them 'more fun'), so they learn and throw in more moves... because they think moves are fun.

    That's the pattern I think we need to break if we're going to further musicality in Cross body style salsa. But while the guys in control lead 100% spins, pretzels and wraps, how on earth can we practice musicality.

    I mean, some girls like spinning, and for me, it's good to have the rollercoaster ride a little during a song, I like it when following - but when that rollercoaster is 100% loops and spins, I get off it feeling sick. I'd rather get the anticipation of the slow bits THEN a short fast whiz in the middle.
  3. Pacion

    Pacion New Member

    :lol: Paou, the communication problem does not exist in salsa only! :lol: The phrase "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" comes to mind! :lol:

    I agree, simple, with the occassional dash of seasoning ;)
  4. tj

    tj New Member

    Very insightful! Less is more.
  5. Andresito

    Andresito Member

    I am sorry to tell you, but this guy is not dancing salsa... nothing latin in any case.

    Look at his feet, they are not in rythm.

    He is just doing a coreography... maybe something borrowed from WCS with a salsa song in the background.

    I think if you like that kind of dance, ( that I appreciate and like to watch too ), maybe you should be doing WCS and not salsa.
  6. tj

    tj New Member

    Paou - forgive Andresito. He only likes his pizza with spinach. :wink:
  7. Pacion

    Pacion New Member

    Are you talking about Frankie? Just checking. ;)
  8. tj

    tj New Member

    Yes, must be because 'Martinez' isn't Latino... :rolleyes:
  9. quixotedlm

    quixotedlm New Member

    Must be, beacuse the WCS clip leader is constantly on the beat and in tune with music. By elimination, we conclude that it must be a reference to FM ;)
  10. Andresito

    Andresito Member

    Ok, I don't have many examples from youtube but here are some of latin salsa

    some amateurs...

    And if you want some with more flashy moves and that don't step all the steps... ( but allways on rythm )

    For you that like moves and show...

    and off course the colombians...

    So ... you see.. this Frank Martinez is walking in comparison...

    I could find many more
  11. Pacion

    Pacion New Member

    Andresito, I (and others) have seen Frankie Martinez dancing and I have to say that the link Paou posted did not do Frankie justice.

    Now, whilst I acknowledge that everyone is entitled to their opinion, please also be prepared to "agree to disagree".
  12. quixotedlm

    quixotedlm New Member

    Sounds like somebody's saying "Frankie isn't da man" and everybody is getting ready for the kill... :raisebro:. Admittedly it's analogous to saying Einstein is mentally challenged, but still...
  13. Big10

    Big10 Member

    Actually, Frankie's feet are very much in rhythm! He is dancing On2 and clearly marking the 2 & the 6 throughout the song. There are plenty of cross-body leads and standard Salsa moves. Frankie may have been making many extra movements with his body and legs, causing you to get distracted, but he's definitely following the beat as well as anybody. He also changes his movement into a Rumba style when the music calls for it from 1:52 to 2:23. :cool: I can't tell you how many times I've heard songs distinctly change rhythms like that, and still see dancers continuing their patterns and multiple spins throughout it. :?

    Personally, I don't have any problem with somebody who prefers a different style of Salsa dancing and doesn't think Frankie Martinez is "da man." However, I do have a problem with someone's saying that Frankie isn't dancing Salsa at all. I think that attitude is part of the problem giving rise to this thread. Many people in the Salsa community look at dancers like Frankie and denigrate/criticize them for spoiling Salsa dancing, instead of respecting those dancers for bringing innovative movements to their expression (regardless of whether you like those movements or not).

    It would be nice if dancers didn't care about being criticized -- but that's not the real world. People have feelings and don't want to "look stupid." Unfortunately, I think that such criticism of "unusual" movement has a tendency to stifle creativity in general, and musicality, specifically.
  14. Big10

    Big10 Member

    Also, by the way, I've found a great new clip of musicality in unrehearsed Salsa social dancing. :cool: It's definitely one of my favorite Salsa clips appearing within the last several months:

    Obviously, as you can see, the key to musicality is to make the woman take off her dress/skirt/pants or whatever might be, ummm, confining her movement. ;)

    Seriously, though, it's a great clip!
  15. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    There was dancing on that clip????:rolleyes:;)--- Now , if we could just get that girl off her toes !!
  16. Pacion

    Pacion New Member

    Q :roll: please behave... It was obviously too subtle for you the emphasis on the "ie". His name that he goes by is Frankie, not Frank. Even if it is a typo, let us not get sloppy. Call people/spell their names as they do. Respect.

    Big 10 expresses my sentiment exactly!
  17. quixotedlm

    quixotedlm New Member

    1. Will do. Sorry.
    2. I'm pretty sure that Andresito was not trying to be disrespectful by using an inappropriate version of his name. To me, that seemed obvious. Yes, if someone is a Frankie fan, it can be irksome. But it's not very different from someone who is not very familiar with Britney Spears spelling her name as Brittany or Birtny etc. innocuously. Also I'm pretty sure that I'd have imagined 'Frankie' to be an informal form of 'Frank' a few years ago before having lived in the US and would have considered 'Frank' the more respectful form of the name. It's just a cultural ignorance thing.
  18. Pacion

    Pacion New Member

    Don't play the cultural difference card Q.

    If you are going to diss someone (or praise them), do your homework and make sure that you type their name correctly. There is no excuse for sloppiness. The man goes by the name of "Frankie". If anything, I would have thought it was an informal version of Francisco rather than Frank. (Francesco if he were italian) :roll:

    In the absence of further knowledge (and that Frankie had not imparted this information on his website the last time I looked) I would use Frankie.

    You also made the assumption that I am "a fan" of Frankie's. :roll: :nope: I met him and had the pleasure of dancing with him several years ago before he became well known in Europe and was in demand in every congress around. He is one of the best male leads I have danced with. His dancing today has evolved into something that does not grab me, however, I still can and do appreciate what he has done to help shape other leads leading technique/ability.

    Now, if you want to say/write that I am "a fan" of Sabor, you would be correct, obviously. ;)
  19. devane

    devane New Member

    The music is wrong....a certain song by Sisqo springs to mind, or even a certain song by the rapper Pitbull.:cool:
    Honestly if Elvis, Tupac or Waldo were in this clip I wouldn't have noticed.;)
  20. Josh

    Josh Active Member

    ditto tt... who knows, maybe the floor was hot... :wink:

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