Salsa > Women redirecting dances

Discussion in 'Salsa' started by Ron Obvious, Jul 10, 2006.

  1. quixotedlm

    quixotedlm New Member


    So is it okay to be a 'power courtier' if you are a 'dancer'?

    Personally, every time i'm about to ask someone to dance, I pass two others who are hoping for a dance i have to deliberately ignore (perhaps until later). it makes me act like i'm 'selecting' alright, but i can't see a way out of it.

    And there are nights when I'm all vanity and would only want to dance with the prettiest girls, never mind if they have a sense of rhythm or not (though i can never figure out why i'd do this, considereing i'll never go for a non-dancer romantically, so what's the f-ing point? ). and there are nights when i'll only dance with the good dancers...

    i suppose i don't have a bad 'rep' because i don't have these odd nights too often :)
     
  2. africana

    africana New Member

    like I said, my friend is new to salsa/clubbing, therefore anything you said here wouldn't apply to her

    By the way, what's with these guys that keep asking far more advanced followers when they KNOW it's not gonna that much fun :confused: I mean one can try but there's only so much you can do....it has got to be far more fun dancing with the more easily entertained partners...In the case I posted this guy seemed like one of those "tourist" club salsa dancers, i.e. never take lessons, never feel like they need to, and come to the club to party or do whatever they do. which is fine, but they certainly don't need me to help them do that
     
  3. africana

    africana New Member

    btw what's the difference between a woman redirecting, and a man choosing the order of asking women? (including asking the lady next to her if she rejects?)

    I don't see what's the big deal with any of it
     
  4. africana

    africana New Member

    dancers do it too, both men and women, I consider it insincere. but at least they have the excuse of acquaintanship

    regardless of how you choose, you've created a mental hierarchy in the order of asking. So why does she have to accept? perhaps she has her preference too
     
  5. africana

    africana New Member

    mhmmm take notes girls...
     
  6. englezul

    englezul New Member


    When this guy asks woman X, it's logically to assume he wanted to dance with no one else but her on the moment. Hence the selection. She can say yes, or no, all great with that. But when she says something like "why don't you dance with my partener instead" she's just being socially awkward because he doesn't want to dance with her friend, if he wanted that he would've asked her. So she puts him in a position in which he has to verbally 'reject' her friend who was never a part of the equation and who might take it bad especially if she's a beginner. So basically while staying 'safe' herself, she puts both of them in a possible precarious situation.

    So now he will 1) either do a pitty dance, because he's too nice to say NO, in essence wasting his time.
    2) say NO and feel bad because he knows nobody likes to be rejected and he was coerced into doing that when in fact a simple NO would have sufficed.
    3) Says no and he's OK with it.
    4) Notices her friend is really hot and he can't wait to get on the dance floor.

    So what happened is that he assumed the risk of discomfort for being rejected, is now rejected, plus experiences extra discomfort for rejecting the friend, all while the woman managed to avoid the all discomfort of her saying NO, by redirecting. So she's certainly a 'don't ask again'. Unless she's a friend already, in which case it doesn't matter, cause it's perceived in a differen't manner.
    I'd say 1. or 2. are more common.
     
  7. africana

    africana New Member

    I had to come back to this one, as I'm confounded that any woman would wait around, doing cartwheels on the side of floor just to get asked! If she's that anxious to dance (and this includes my friends who do this!) and she's that willing or bold to put forth such a show, then she has a mouth, hands and feet to step out and ask. I keep telling these girls....IMO it's so transparent and almost demeaning, they make it hard for people like me who actually WANT to dance alone sometimes. Because despite the fact that I would like to not be approached at times, these fellows will assume that I'm putting on a show in order to be asked
    No, if and when I'm ready to dance I will make things happen :p

    I definitely know that feeling of intimidating better leads, but I wouldn't call these guys "the good leads" because the good (relatively advanced) leads , in my experience have little reason to be so intimidated. I've actually used this phenomenon as a filtering device LOL!

    Anyways if you can follow, you can follow. And that's all one has to demonstrate...after that, it doesn't take much to get asked whether or not I'm solo dancing vigorously

    oddly enough, it's the not-at-all-good-leads who almost always interrupt my solo times. I guess I look like I'm having too good a time? hahhaa!
     
  8. africana

    africana New Member

    Not really, there's a mental hierarchy many guys follow, and sometimes it's quite obvious. And it's not strictly based on dance skills...which is why after a while one has to learn how to play the games too

    even now when I'm sure I'm first choice, I still remember when I wasn't, and I knew the reasons why...power-courting is certainly one of them, as is physical attributes, personal presentation, attitude, and other factors.

    I think the main problem here is lack of self-confidence: I mean, one can gain it externally, sometimes. But somehow you have to internalize it, and use it to your advantage. Then it becomes easier to get over rejection, or sheep-like behavior
     
  9. squirrel

    squirrel New Member

    I would never redirect a guy. Nor would I ask him to dance with a girl if he wasn't my close friend.

    I am well aware that most people are in the club not to dance, but to meet other people. So why should I interfere with their fun?

    Girls have mouths and tongues which can be used to ask others to dance. I did it. So can others. Don't expect to have fun if you rely only on others to "do the dirty work" of asking for you. :)
     
  10. Shooshoo

    Shooshoo New Member

    Yeah, I've already noticed that, but it doesn't really bother me. We're all there for our own interest :rolleyes: .
     
  11. Shooshoo

    Shooshoo New Member

    Yeah, I did it once and all she got was a pity dance :( . Never again. I just try to introduce my friend to the guys coming to say hello.
     
  12. Vibrance

    Vibrance New Member

    I think you’re right Africana, but it’s one of those vicious circles.

    Back to topic though; strictly speaking a lady has the right to refuse any dance and need not give a reason, if she has a group of preferred leads that’s entirely her prerogative. Similarly if she only dances with people that she knows can dance that’s entirely up to her too.
    Looking at it from the ladies point of view, perhaps she’s just had several dances with people less skilled than her and wants some ‘quality’ dances before the night is over.
    As a guy I technically don’t have the right to question this decision and if she re-directs me to someone who says yes, all the better. Maybe her friend will say I’m OK and she’ll dance with me later.

    Generally speaking guys can’t complain; our main obligation is to be a reasonable lead (and not smell bad); if we meet that obligation we can either dance all night, or pick and choose. Unfortunately despite the right to say no, ladies have a tacit obligation to say yes to every dance, which (in my opinion) stems from the fact they don’t know how many times they’ll be asked that night and don’t want a reputation as someone who refuses dances (there are nearly always more above average female dancers than men).

    I personally think guys need to get over it – I’d much rather have the odd refusal or redirection, than having to wait to be asked (risking only half a dozen or less dances that night) or feel obliged to dance with someone I don’t really want to. Alternatively ladies can ask for dances but if they are unlucky they end up with a sleaze who thinks she’s got the hots for him.

    I always think back to the salsafreak’s man vs woman learning curve and reckon that half the reason that I caught up with the women who started at the same time as me is because on any given night I have three times as many dances as those ladies.
     
  13. Houdinni

    Houdinni New Member

    That would be true in a different world... But noone actually has to wait to be asked unless they want to...

    if girls wait to be asked is by choice, either because they're ashamed or because they don't wish to deal with a possible rejection, or whatever... But they only have to step up and ask instead of asking... Lot's of them do... :)
     
  14. Canuco

    Canuco New Member

    This is for Ron Obvious; You politely tell her, with a sincere smile, that you prefer to dance with her. You extend your hand once again and wait for a few seconds, if she declines then you dance with her friend. When your finished dancing return to her and ask her once more. Chances are strong that she will say yes. That is if you gave a good accounting of yourself on the dance floor with her friend. Trust me, she was watching. Good Luck.
     
  15. quixotedlm

    quixotedlm New Member


    I'd recommend not pressing the point. You can decline the opportunity to dance with her friend, but don't ask her again. Just treat it as any other refusal. She should get one more chance (perhaps on another day) to dance with you. If for whatever reasons she refuses your second request for a dance (even if she forgot all about you by then and doesn't realize that it is a second 'no' in succession), you should probably just not ask her to dance again.

    Even though the social mores on a dance floor are slightly chivalrous and archaic, they by no means imply that it is okay to take people for granted, or treat them as less than equals, or treat them with less than utmost courtesy. And accepting less courteous treatment isn't a good thing, really!
     
  16. amo_dile_que_no

    amo_dile_que_no New Member

    I agree pressing the point is not a good idea. Either, ask her friend to dance or say thank you and be on your way.

    One person that has been overlooked in this discussion is the friend who the lady deflects you to. It's potentially putting her into a situation that might hurt her feelings if the guy says no thanks and leaves. That's not a nice thing to do to a friend. She's actually putting 2 people in an awkward position.

    When I have had this happen, I go ahead and ask the other lady to dance, but I probably won't ask the one who deflected my request again that evening unless I know her or she says that she would like to later. If it's a simple deflection, I treat it as I would any time a lady declines without giving a reason (which she has every right to do). Like quixote, I may ask again on another night and if she declines again without a reason I just assume she's not interested, so I don't bother her again.
     
  17. aimerrouge

    aimerrouge New Member

    Absolutely.

    Men should always remember this.

    Not only that, but also it would appear women aren't allowed to have any hierarchy of their own.

    This could be posted by any woman, it is SO TRUE.

    No one ever forgets what it is like not to be chosen.
     
  18. quixotedlm

    quixotedlm New Member

    In my mind, I always visualized this scenario as the friend sitting a few feet away where she has no idea something like this is happening. I realize now that is not quite how it might play out all the time, but the one time this did happen to me, the friend was out of earshot.

    I agree entirely with amo_dile_que_no that if the friend knows about the redirection, dancing with her is the best and the polite thing to do.
     
  19. quixotedlm

    quixotedlm New Member

    africana, i also wrote this:


    you must be a tabloid reporter ;) you left out the important part of my post in your quote :(

    The mental hierarchy thing is true, but in most cases, dance skills are the first thing one looks at, and then all things remaining equal, we look for other attributes. Two of the most important attributes I look for are the 'nice factor' and willingness to learn.

    If she was unpleasant to me when I was a novice, the only way she'd get a dance from me is if she asked. I still haven't said 'no' to a request coming from a lady, but I do have one or two of them in mind who will get a 'no' if/when they ask me to dance..

    The 'willingness to learn' factor isn't quite about me teaching them something... but if the follower is a novice, I do observe is she is improving over time, like a few weeks. If she isn't, I wouldn't ask her to dance again. Nothing wrong with the followers who only want to 'wing it' and not learn, but it isn't fun for me.

    And then I wouldn't ask someone to dance if she can't put a smile on her face.

    And no more dances
    [*] with someone who looks like she is not enjoying dancing with me, or has that glazed look on her eyes because she is too advanced a dancer and thinks that I'm beneath her level.
    [*] = well, maybe 'no more dances' is harsh. But they certainly wouldn't be my first pick.

    I can think up more reasons why I'd put somebody low my my preference list (no, i don't have a list), but not all of them have to do with physical attraction related attributes. I like beautiful women, because almost everything I wrote about has to do with beauty... Beautiful face, attractive physique are but two attributes contributing to that overall beauty. And I'm not ashamed to say to that I do judge poeple based on my own (perhaps limited and flawed) perception of beauty, and I always gravitate towards the more beautiful ones.

    It's my life, and my agenda :) "mhmmm take notes girls..."...
     
  20. quixotedlm

    quixotedlm New Member

    I know a guy who does a lot of volunteering work, and esp likes to work with high school kids. He is constantly introducing these kids to ballroom, esp. salsa. And he also tries to introduce salsa to his co-volunteers, most of who are women. So everytime he comes dancing, he is flanked by 3-8 women!, most of who aren't regular dancers.

    I'm amazed how he manages to get other leads to ask these women to dance. Somehow, he seems to have a great instinct for identifying leads (who he knows/has a rapport with in classes etc) and who are also nice fealls who'd happily show a novice how to dance and be patient.

    I sometimes don't enjoy showing his co-volunteers (grown up adults) how something is done, esp. if they don't show up timely for the introductory class or are too uninterested and only came along because it was a group outing etc, but it is always a treat to dance with the kids and see their excitement in learning something new.

    The point I'm trying to make is that not every 'deflection' needs to go bad, and they aren't all equal. If you are a girl+dancer who has just been asked, 'deflection' is (arguably) bad. But if you are guy going dancing with (women) friends, you can get other guys to dance with them easily (as long as you can pick the good ones). I'm sure it will even work for a girl (who's a dancer), just as long as you already have a rapport with that said leader in question.
     

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