The above is a quote from Phil Owl. I am interested in this problem/topic, so I started a new thread, since it was on the general peeve thread and I wanted to make sure the topic would get noticed. I have some observations and questions: First, I am aware that dancing must be difficult for some women, thus, they may need all of there brain power to think about and control their feet, so maybe they cannot pay attention to what they are doing with their hands and arms, BUT.....seriously..... I have women that come to my lessons or the club that nearly "Darth Vader" my hands to death. Every turn of every kind in the pattern they are gripping my 4 fingers like they want to crush them and/or twist them off. Super-beginners are excusable and I try to set them straight, right in the lesson. I don't know what others think of that, but 1) my teacher is quite vocal in encouraging that. I remember one day he was kind of pissed with some girl who just about broke his thumb, so he turned to the guys and asked whether anybody else didn't have a dislocated thumb from this chick, and a couple guys said, "Oh, yeah." The teacher was like, "well, tell her! I think my teacher has the right idea. If you don't nip this in the bud, you will have scenario two in the future. 2) I get the same kind of girl sometimes and I ask her how long she has been dancing, and she says a year or two years. I am like, blown away! Are we doing her a favor by not telling her and trying to help her??? If I have a habit that is that bad, I certainly want some woman or women to let me know! ARMS: same thing. Arms of steal can be forgiven in a newbie, but if you are the same after years and years, maybe you should give up and dance solo? I was at a big dance event once there was this woman who seemed intent on eating me alive. I wasn't interested in her, but I could tolerate her aggressive assault. The problem was, she continually asked me to dance. She was impossible to lead! With any kind of CBL turn she just about ripped my arms out and pulled me over; talk about abuse. She attacked me in a restaurant later, so I started talking about dance. I asked her how long she was dancing salsa and she said 10 years!!!! I just about fell off my chair! I thought she was a beginner! What is the deal with these two habits??? Are some follows simply and utterly incurable for some reason or another? Is it merely that teachers and leads for months or years have just not had the balls to try to help/correct them? For me personally, I do not relish pointing such things out to a woman who has been dancing a long time, but if she is a beginner I have NO qualms! I am doing her a favor, because who is ever going to want to dance with her in the future??? Here is one of my "cool" tactics. I explain to woman and demonstrate up to 3 times what she should be doing, rather then crushing my extremities. If she still keeps doing the exact same thing, I say, "Okay, you be the man, and I will be you. Lead me into a simple right turn or CBL with left-inside-turn. I let her lead me twice with proper hand contact, and then ask her if it feels okay. Of course she says "yes". Then we do it again and I use her "Darth Vader" deathgrip and half-torque her fingers off of her hand. Then I ask her whether that felt good. VERY EFFECTIVE! I try to get her to realize that that is what she is doing to a guy for a few minutes at a time. Brutal, but some people don't seem to be able to learn any other way. The teacher tells them ten times per lesson, and leads like myself try to tell them, but to no avail. And if you think about it, it isn't so brutal. I am only crushing her fingers once. She is crushing mine dozens of times, and probably crushing the fingers of the others guys dozens of times.